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AR01413139 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE  THE 


SENATE  COMMITTEE 


IN  THE  MATTER  OF 


TRINITY  CHURCH. 


Transmitted  to  the  Legislature  February  28, 1857. 


ALBANY: 

C.  VAN  BENTHUYSEN,  PRINTER  TO  THE  LEGISLATURE, 
No.  40?  Broadway. 

1857. 


mm 


Avery  Architectural  and  Fine  Arts  Library 
Gift  of  Seymour  B.  Durst  Old  York  Library 


No.  95. 


11  SENATE,  FEB.  28,  1857. 


Testimony  taken  before  the  Senate  committee  in  the  matter 
of  Trinity  Church. 

TESTIMONY  INTRODUCED  ON  THE  PART  OF  THE  VES- 
TRY. 

Friday,  February  13,  1857. 
Present — Senate  committee — Senators  Spencer,  Noxon,  and 
Ramsey.    The  trustees  of  Trinity  church  were  represented  by 
Judge  Parker,  and  0.  Meads,  Esq. 

Rev.  Benjamin  I.  Haight,  called  and  sworn. 

Ques.  What  means  have  you  of  being  acquainted  with  the 
affairs  of  Trinity  Church  1  A.  I  have  been  one  of  the  ministers  of 
Trinity  Church  tor  the  last  ten  years,  and  for  nearly  two  years 
last  past  have  been  the  assistant  minister  assigned  to  Trinity 
Church,  and  have  had  more  especial  charge  of  the  parochial 
work  connected  with  that  church.  I  have  lived  in  New- York 
all  my  life,  with  the  exception  nf  about  three  years;  for  nearly 
twenty-three  years  have  been  exercising  the  functions  of  my 
ministry  in  the  city  of  New-York. 

Q.  It  is  stated  in  the  report  of  the  select  committee,  at  page 
seven,  that  it  appears  in  the  evidence  that  Trinity  Church  has 
never  at  any  time  established  or  endowed  any  institution  of 
charity  or  benevolence,  even  for  her  own  poor.  Is  this  correct] 
A.  I  know  of  several  institutions  of  charity  or  benevolence  which 
have  either  been  established  or  endowed  by  Trinity  Church  for 

[Senate,  No.  95.]  1  |u.n.2,0O0L.300C.] 


4 


[Senate 


at  his  request,  and  by  him  communicated  to  the  vestry  along 
with  the  reports  of  other  assistant  ministers,  and  may  be  found 
in  the  appendix  to  the  report  of  the  rector,  which  has  been 
printed  for  distribution.  In  connection  with  St.  Paul's,  St. 
John's  and  Trinity  chapel,  there  are  also  parochial  arrangements 
having  reference  to  the  poor,  with  the  details  of  which  I  am 
not,  however,  sufficiently  acquainted  to  speak,  they  being  in  the 
charge  of  other  assistant  ministers  of  said  parish.  St.  George's 
chapel,  Beekman  street,  has  been  sustained  by  Trinity  Church 
for  several  years  pastas  a  mission  church;  the  resident  popula- 
tion in  the  neighborhood  being  exclusively  of  the  poorer  class. 
The  same  remark  may  apply  to  the  resident  population  general- 
ly in  the  lower  part  of  the  city. 

Q.  What  number  of  ministers  are  there  in  Trinity  parish? 
How  are  they  employed,  and  what  are  the  character  and  num- 
ber of  the  congregations  which  attend  the  several  churches  in 
that  parish  ?  A.  There  are  nine  clergymen  in  Trinity  parish — 
the  rector  and  eight  assistant  ministers.  Two  of  the  assistant 
ministers  are  engaged  in  parochial  duty  in  connection  with  each 
of  the  churches,  the  rector  having  the  general  oversight  of  the 
parish,  and  performing  duties  in  all  parts  thereof.  The  congre- 
gation at  Trinity  church  is  large,  and  composed  in  great  part  of 
strangers,  transient  residents,  young  men,  clerks,  etc.,  and  the 
poor,  upon  none  of  whom  is  any  tax,  in  the  form  of  pew  rent  or 
otherwise,  laid,  for  the  support  of  the  ministrations  of  the  church. 
Of  the  character  and  number  of  the  congregations  in  the  three 
chapels— St.  Paul's,  St.  John's,  and  Trinity  chapel.  I  cannot 
speak  with  as  much  certainty.  The  congregation  at  St.  Paul's 
appears  to  me  to  be  very  similar  to  that  of  Trinity,  and  con- 
stantly becoming  more  so.  In  St.  John's  chapel,  an  arrange- 
ment has  been  made,  I  believe,  by  which  a  certain  number  of 
free  sittings  have  been  provided,  with  special  reference  to  the 
poor;  and  in  Trinity  chapel  there  are  from  one  hundred  and 
fifty  to  two  hundred  tree  sittings,  in  the  best  parts  of  the  church, 
which  are  generally  well  filled.  At  the  third  or  night  service 
in  Trinity  chapel,  which  is  continued  for  several  months  in  the 
year,  and  on  all  other  occasions  except  the  morning  and  after- 
noon service  on  Sundays  and  several  special  days,  all  the  seats 


No.  95.  | 


5 


in  Trinity  chapel  are  free.  This  chapel  and  Trinity  church  are 
open  daily  for  morning  and  afternoon  service  throughout  the  year. 
It  is  computed  there  are  from  1,200  to  1,500  free  sittings  in  the 
parish. 

Q.  Have  the  contributions  for  charitable  and  religious  purpo- 
ses in  the  down  town  congregations  of  Trinity  parish  been  de- 
creasing of  late  years,  and  if  so,  how  do  you  account  for  it  1 
A.  My  impression  is  that  they  have  decreased.  In  Trinity 
Church  our  collections,  with  the  exception  of  the  contributions 
of  a  very  few  persons,  are  small,  owing  to  the  fact  that  the  great 
bulk  of  the  worshipers  are  either  strangers  or  persons  in  very 
moderate  circumstances;  the  wealthier  portion  of  its  former  con- 
gregation having  removed  to  the  upper  part  of  the  city. 

Q.  What  church  accommodations  are  there  down  town,  below 
the  Park,  besides  those  afforded  by  the  churches  of  Trinity 
parish?  A.  I  know  of  but  two  other  places  of  worship;  the 
Dutch  church,  in  William-street,  and  the  Methodist  church,  in 
John-st.  In  consequence  of  the  removal  of  the  other  churches, 
the  clergy  of  Trinity  parish  are  not  unfrequently  called  upon  to 
minister  to  the  people  of  several  protestant  denominations. 
Among  the  candidates  presented  for  confirmation  in  Trinity 
Church,  last  spring,  a  large  proportion  were  persons  who  did  not 
originally  belong  to  the  Episcopal  church.  No  call  for  ministe 
rial  service,  from  any  quarter,  is  ever  declined  by  the  clergy  of 
Trinity  parish,  and  special  arrangements  have  been  made  at 
Trinity  and  St.  Paul's  churches  for  convenience  of  access  to  the 
clergy  for  such  duties.  For  example,  Trinity  church  is  open 
throughout  the  entire  day  in  each  day  of  the  week,  and  the 
clergy  are  in  attendance  in  the  vestry  room  at  stated  hours,  to 
answer  any  calls  for  their  services  that  may  be  made.  In 
this  way,  the  sick,  the  dying  and  the  afflicted,  can  always  be 
visited  by  a  clergyman  within  a  short  period.  By  far  the 
greater  part  of  the  work  thus  performed  is  among  the  poor. 

Recess  until  4  P.  M.,  Saturday. 


c 


[Senate 


Saturday,  Feb.  14,  4  p.m. 
Present,  the  Senate  Committee,  Messrs.  Spencer,  Noxon  and 
Ramsey.    Judge  Parker  and  0.  Meads,  Esq.,  on  behalf  of  the 
Trustees  of  Trinity  Church. 

Rev.  Benjamin  I.  Haight,  testimony  continued  : 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  arrangements  in  regard  to  the  poor  in 
Trinity  parish,  in  addition  to  those  you  mentioned  yesterday  ? 
A.  I  think  that  one  of  my  answers  yesterday  included  all  the 
arrangements  in  general  terms.  With  the  arrangements  at  St. 
Paul-s,  St.  John's  and  Trinity  chapels  I  am  not  thoroughly 
familiar.  A  sketch  of  them  will  be  found  in  the  recent  report 
of  the  Rector  to  the  Vestry  of  Trinity  Church,  which  has  been 
published,  and  to  which  I  yesterday  referred.  I  will  here  add, 
that  the  several  parochial  arrangements,  having  reference  to  the 
poor  in  Trinity  parish,  which  I  have  described,  and  which  were 
commenced  about  two  years  since,  I  regard  not  as  a  complete 
system,  but  as  only  the  beginning  of  a  system  of  parochial 
arrangement.  When  I  entered  upon  my  present  duties,  it  was 
with  the  distinct  impression  on  my  part,  grounded  upon  my 
knowledge  of  the  views  of  the  Rector  and  the  Yestry,  that  I  was 
not  to  be  simply  a  parochial  minister  at  Trinity  Church,  in  the 
ordinary  acceptation  of  that  term,  but  that  I  was  also  to  origi- 
nate and  carry  forward  various  plans  of  a  missionary  character, 
having  reference  to  the  working  classes  and  the  poor  in  that  dis- 
trict. I  have  acted  upon  this  presumption,  and  have  thus  far 
received  from  the  Rector  and  Vestry  constant  encouragement 
and  support ;  and  I  have  no  doubt  but  that  encouragement  and 
support  will  continue  to  be  extended  to  me,  with  reference  to 
any  plans  which  I  may  present  for  the  moral  and  spiritual  bene- 
fit of  the  inhabitants  in  the  lower  part  of  the  city. 

Q.  The  report  states,  vp.  6,)  that  as  to  free  churches,  it  does  not 
appear,  from  the  report  of  Trinity  Church,  that  she  has  ever 
built  any.  What  can  you  say  on  this  subject  1  A.  The  state- 
ment in  the  report  is  technically  true,  but  it  does  not  convey  to 
my  mind  an  accurate  representation  of  the  subject ;  for  in  conse- 
quence of  the  building  of  the  new  Trinity  chapel,  and  the 


No.  95.J 


7 


arrangements  made  by  the  Vestry  with  regard  to  the  pews  in 
that  chapel,  Trinity  Church  and  St.  Paul's  chapel  have  already 
in  great  part  changed  their  former  character,  and  from  pewed 
churches,  as  they  are  termed,  have  become  virtually  free 
churches,  so  that,  although  Trinity  Church  has  not  built,  tech- 
nically, two  free  churches,  she  has,  so  to  speak,  created  two. 
The  foregoing  remark  applies  in  part  also  to  St.  John's  chapel. 

The  arrangements  in  regard  to  the  pews  at  Trinity  Chapel, 
to  which  I  have  referred,  were  these  :  The  Yestry  offered  to 
each  party  holding  a  pew  in  either  of  their  three  down-town 
churches,  who  might  be  desirous  of  obtaining  a  pew  in  Trinity 
Chapel,  to  credit  him  with  the  amount  of  the  rent  of  his  pew 
down  town  on  condition  that,  while  he  occupies  the  pew  in  Tri- 
nity chapel,  the  Vestry  should  be  entitled  to  the  use  of  the  pew 
down  town.  The  pews  which  thus  come  into  the  possession  of 
the  Vestry  have  been  thrown  open  by  them  for  general  use, 
without  charge.  As  the  number  of  pews  of  this  class  is  quite 
large,  as  I  have  before  said,  Trinity  and  St.  Pauls  have  become, 
in  a  large  measure,  free  churches  and  St.  Johns  measurably  so  ; 
and  these  churches  are  of  such  a  character,  architecturally  and 
otherwise,  as  to  secure  the  attendance  of  the  poor  to  a  much 
greater  extent  than  has  been  found  practicable  in  humbler  edifi- 
ces. 

Q.  Has  Trinity  Church,  clergymen  employed  as  ministers  at 
large  whose  special  duty  it  is  to  look  after  the  spiritual  wants 
of  the  poor  and  destitute  among  the  "  inhabitants  of  the  city  of 
New-York,  in  communion  of  the  Protestant  Episcopal  Church  ?" 
A.  When  about  two  years  ago  the  Vestry  increased  the  number 
of  assistant  ministers,  three  were  added,  whose  special  duty  it 
was  to  look  after  the  spiritual  wants  of  the  poor  and  destitute  ; 
one  of  these  has  been  assigned  by  the  Rector  to  do  missionary 
duty  of  this  class,  in  connection  with  each  of  the  three  down 
town  churches,  and  have  been  constantly  occupied  therein  from 
that  time  ;  and  from  the  nature  of  the  cases,  three  of  the  other 
assistant  ministers  who  have  been  assigned  to  the  said  churches 
have  been  called  upon  for  a  large  share  of  this  sort  of  duty. 
In  my  own  case,  fully  three-fourths^of  my  parochial  work  has 
been  among  the  poor  and  destitute. 


8 


[Senate 


Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  missionary  duty  %  A.  I  mean  the 
performance  of  ministerial  work  among  the  poor  and  destitute 
who  are  not  ordinarily  found  within  our  churches,  and  who 
have  to  be  in  many  cases  sought  after. 

Q.  In  the  report  of  this  committee,  page  22,  it  is  said  of  the 
congregation  of  Trinity  Parish  that  their  four  congregations 
united  do  less,  as  is  testified,  than  some  single  independent  con- 
gregations in  this  same  city,  with  little  or  no  endowment.  What 
have  you  to  say  on  this  subject ;  and  if  it  is  so,  is  it  charge- 
able at  all  to  the  administration  of  the  affairs  of  Trinity  Church, 
by  the  Vestry  ?  A.  If  the  statement  referred  to,  be  true,  it  is 
not  to  be  wondered  at,  inasmuch  as  two  of  the  congregations  of 
Trinity  Parish  are  now  mainly  composed  of  strangers,  transient 
persons,  the  working  classes  and  the  poor  ;  while  even  in  regard 
to  the  other  two  congregations  it  may  be  affirmed,  that  neither 
of  them,  not  even  that  of  Trinity  Chapel,  compares  in  point  of 
individual  wealth  with  several  other  independent  congregations. 
There  has  been  a  very  great  change,  of  late  years  in  the  down 
town  congregations,  in  consequence  of  the  removal  of  persons 
of  substance,  to  the  upper  parts  of  the  city.  I  can  see  no  con- 
nection whatever,  between  the  alleged  smallness  of  the  contribu- 
tions of  the  members  of  Trinity  Parish  and  the  administration 
of  the  affairs  of  the  Corporation.  If  there  be  a  fault  in  the 
matter,  it  cannot  justly,  be  laid  to  the  charge  of  the  Vestry  ;  it 
must  rest  with  the  clergy  and  the  people. 

Q.  Are  you  cognizant  of  any  measures  taken  from  time  to 
time  for  the  purpose  of  ascertaining  who  have  been  added  to  the 
corporators  of  Trinity  parish,  and  what  difficulties  are  there  in 
the  city  of  New-York,  in  ascertaining  who  ceased  to  be  corpora- 
tors ?  A.  I  have  been  annually  asked  by  the  rector  to  make  a 
return  to  him,  of  all  such  male  persons  who  have  to  my  know- 
ledge become  communicants  in  our  parish,  in  order  that  he 
might  add  them  to  the  list  of  corporators.  In  no  case  that  I 
remember,  have  I  been  asked  by  any  individual  who  had  thus 
acquired  the  rights  of  a  corporator,  to  return  his  name,  but  the 
return  has  been  made  at  the  desire  of  the  rector  ;  there  is  great 
difficulty  in  the  city  of  New-York  in  a  large  and  miscellaneous 


No.  95.J 


parish  like  ours,  in  ascertaining  who  of  the  male  communicants 
have  removed  and  the  time  of  their  removal  ;  the  same  diffi- 
culty is  felt  also  in  regard  to  pew  holders  ;  sometimes  there  are 
temporary  and  sometimes  permanent  absences  without  notifica- 
tion to  the  rector  or  any  of  the  clergy. 

Q.  It  is  said  in  the  report  of  this  committee  (page  22),  that 
there  is  so  little  interest  in  the  vestry  elections  of  Trinity  parish, 
that  in  eight  out  of  the  past  ten  years,  an  average  of  hardly  one 
in  ten  of  the  corporators  cared  to  appear  ;  is  this  state  of  things 
peculiar  to  Trinity  parish,  and  does  it  indicate  "  torpor,"  im- 
puted in  the  report?  A.  A  like  statement  might  be  made,  I 
apprehend,  in  regard  to  every  parish  in  the  city  of  New- York  ; 
I  was  rector  for  nearly  ten  years  of  a  large  parish  in  the  city, 
All  Saints,  which  numbered  say  from  100  to  150  corporators  ;  I 
never  saw  at  any  election,  having  presided  at  all,  of  wardens  or 
vestrymen,  more  than  four  or  five  voters,  except  on  one  occasion 
at  a  period  of  great  excitement  in  the  church,  when  there  were 
about  thirty  present  ;  I  do  not  consider  the  non-attendance  of 
the  corporators  on  these  occasions,  as  any  evidence  whatever  of 
a  want  of  interest  in  parish  matters  or  as  a  sign  of  "  torpor,"  but 
rather  as  a  mark  of  their  entire  satisfaction  with  the  administra- 
tion of  the  parish.  In  the  case  of  All  Saints  church,  the  parish 
was  united  and  highly  prosperous. 

Q.  It  is  stated  in  the  report  of  this  committee,  p.  19.,  that  the 
effect  of  this  system,  (that  is,  the  system  by  which  Trinity  Church 
has  contributed  to  other  parishes,  wholly  in  the  way  ot  pecu- 
niary grants,  made  either  in  specific  sums  or  in  annual  appro- 
priations, terminated  at  the  pleasure  of  the  Vestry,)  as  appears 
from  the  evidence,  has  been  to  injure  instead  of  promoting  the 
independence  of  the  parishes  thus  aided.  Is  the  statement  cor- 
rect that  the  making  pecuniary  grants  in  either  of  such  forms, 
or  secured  by  mortgages,  has  had  that  effect  ?  State,  also,  what 
effect,  if  any,  has  aid  in  these  forms  had  upon  independence  of 
speech  and  freedom  of  action  on  the  part  of  parishes  and  clergy- 
men thus  aided,  where  they  meet  in  the  diocesan  conventions 
and  other  church  associations,  and  where  there  are  diversities  of 
opinion  as  to  matters  of  morals  and  doctrines  1  A.  I  do  not 
think  that  the  aid  bestowed  in  any  of  the  forms  mentioned,  has 


10 


[Senate 


had  the  slightest  effect  upon  the  independence  of  speech  and 
freedom  of  action  of  the  clergy  or  laity  of  the  parishes  aided.  I 
have  had  some  opportunity  of  noticing  the  course  pursued  by 
clergy  and  laity  in  our  diocesan  convention,  having  been  for 
twenty  years  Assistant  Secretary  and  Secretary  of  the  same,  dur- 
ing the  greater  part  of  which  time  there  prevailed  great  diver- 
sities of  opinion.  In  looking  over  the  list  of  parishes  whose 
churches  have  been  mortgaged  to  Trinity  Church,  I  find  eight, 
the  clergy  and  lay  delegates  of  which,  for  a  series  of  years,  on 
all  leading  questions  spoke  and  voted  differently  from  the  Rec- 
tor and  lay  delegates  of  Trinity.  Two  of  these  are  mortgaged 
for  |25,000,  two  for  $20,000,  one  for  $5,000,  the  other  three  for 
smaller  sums.  So,  also,  in  regard  to  the  churches  which  have 
received  grants  of  land  and  money,  or  annual  stipends.  I  find 
nearly  thirty  which  have  taken  the  same  independent  course  in 
convention,  without  regard  to  the  course  of  Trinity.  My 
opinion  of  the  clergy  and  laity  of  the  diocese  of  New  York  is 
such  that  I  do  not  think  it  would  be  practicable  for  any  corpora- 
tion to  buy  their  opinions  or  their  votes.  Of  the  churches  last 
referred  to,  six  received  gifts  of  money  and  land,  and  twelve  re- 
ceived gifts  of  money  alone,  two  received  gifts  of  land  and  a 
stipend,  three  received  gilts  of  land  alone,  six  received  gifts  of 
stipend  alone.  My  knowledge  of  the  votes  of  the  lay  delegates 
and  clergy  of  the  several  parishes  is  derived  from  the  fact  that, 
for  a  series  of  years  it  became  my  duty  at  every  convention  to 
call  the  ayes  and  noes  on  very  many  questions. 

Q.  In  applications  for  aid,  has  Trinity  Church,  in  your  opin- 
ion, favored  those  whose  party  views  were  similar  fo  her  own,  or 
has  she  refused  aid  on  the  avowed  ground  that  the  views  of  the 
applicants  were  not  coincident  with  her  own  ?  A.  I  do  not  be- 
lieve that  the  question  of  church  politics  has  ever  entered  into 
the  distribution  of  the  gifts  of  the  vestry  of  Trinity  Church,  I 
never  have  heard  of  any  application  for  aid  which  was  refused 
upon  the  ground  that  the  parties  making  it,  differed  in  theologi- 
cal or  ecclesiastical  opinions  from  the  rector  and  vestry  of 
Trinity  Church. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  whole  number  of  Episcopal  churches 
in  the  city  of  New- York  have  received  aid,  in  some  form,  from 


No.  95.] 


11 


Trinity  Church?  A.  There  are  about  fifty  Episcopal  churches 
in  New- York  city,  and  I  think  all  of  them,  except  two,  have 
received  aid  from  Trinity  Church.  Of  these  two,  one,  the 
Church  of  the  Holy  Communion,  was  built  by  one  person,  and 
the  other,  the  Church  of  the  Incarnation,  was  built  by  the 
wealthy  congregation  of  Grace  Church. 

By  the  committee. 

Q,  What  appropriations  have  been  made  by  Trinity  Church 
during  the  last  three  years  previous  to  April,  1855,  to  institu 
tions  of  charity,  benevolence,  or  learning,  in  the  city  of  New 
York  1    A,  I  do  not  remember  of  any  made  within  that  specific 
period.    Those  that  I  have  already  named,  were  made  either 
before  or  after  the  period  mentioned. 

Q.  What  means  have  you  of  knowing  what  motives  govern 
Trinity  Church  in  her  grants  to  other  churches  1  A.  I  have 
been  connected  with  Trinity  Church  as  one  of  the  ministers  for 
nearly  ten  years,  and  have  been  in  the  habit  of  frequent  con- 
verse with  the  rector  and  several  of  the  leading  vestrymen  in 
regard  to  their  benefactions. 

Q.  Have  the  clergy,  other  than  the  rector,  any  voice  or  vote 
in  making  gifts  or  grants  ?  A.  The  assistant  ministers  are  not 
members  of  the  vestry,  and  therefore  are  not  entitled  to  vote 
upon  such  questions.  Whatever  influence  they  may  have  in 
such  grants  arises  from  their  official  relations  to  the  vestry. 

Q.  When  you  speak  of  aid  to  churches,  do  you  include  those 
which  give  mortgages  for  what  they  receive?  A.  I  do,  because 
it  is  perfectly  well  understood  that  those  mortgages  are  not  to 
pay  interest,  and  are  never  to  be  collected  unless  under  very 
extraordinary  circumstances. 

Q.  Do  you  or  do  you  not  know  that  when  such  mortgages  are 
renewed,  the  accumulated  interest  is  added  to  the  principal  ? 
A.  I  have  no  knowledge  on  this  particular  point,  but  have  never 
heard  or  known  that  the  payment  of  any  interest  has  been  ex- 
acted. I  have  never  heard  of  an  instance  where  the  accumu- 
lated interest  has  been  added  to  the  principal. 


12  [Senate 

Q.  You  spoke  of  new  arrangements  having  been  made  within 
the  past  two  years,  can  you  fix  the  time  more  definitely  1  A. 
I  was  assigned  to  my  present  position  early  in  June,  1855. 

Q.  Are  there  not  in  Trinity  Church  and  all  her  chapels  some 
paying  pews  ?    A.  There  are. 

Q.  Is  there  not,  sir,  a  great  want  of  churches  in  certain  parts 
of  the  city  of  New -York  ?  There  is  undoubtedly  a  want  of 
church  accommodations  in  the  city  of  New- York. 

Q.  Is  there  a  single  Episcopal  church  in  the  4th,  6th,  13th  or 
14th  wards,  in  the  city  of  New-York  1  A.  I  cannot  answer  that 
question  without  a  map  of  the  city. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  us,  sir,  when  the  present  Trinity  church  was 
built?    A.  It  was  consecrated  in  1846. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  us  what  it  cost  ?  A.  I  do  not  remember  the 
cost. 

Qi  When  was  Trinity  chapel  built  ?  A.  It  was  consecrated 
in  1855. 

Q.  What  did  it  cost  ?  A.  $227,000,  according  to  the  report  of 
the  vestry. 

Q.  How  many  persons  will  Trinity  church  and  Trinity  chapel 
seat  %  A.  Trinity  church  will  seat,  as  at  present  arranged,  about 
1,200;  Trinity  chapel  about  1,000  persons.  I  have  seen  2,000 
persons  in  Trinity  church  on  special  occasions. 

Q.  In  your  opinion,  has  the  Episcopal  church  kept  pace  with 
the  increase  of  population  of  the  city]    A.  It  has  not. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  that  the  church  accommodations  in  the 
city  have  kept  pace  with  the  increase  of  Episcopalians  in  the 
city?  A.  I  think  it  has,  and  more;  inasmuch  as  the  increase  of 
population  of  the  city  of  New- York  has  been  very  largely  from 
foreign  countries,  from  New  England,  and  other  parts  of  the 
United  States,  where  the  members  of  the  Episcopal  church  have 
not  been  numerous. 


No.  95,J 


13 


Q.  Do  you  think  church  accommodations  of  all  denominations 
have  increased  proportionately  with  the  increase  of  population? 
A.  I  do  not  think  that  it  has  fully.    It  has  measurably. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  sir,  whether  St.  Matthew's  church  was  shut 
up  and  offered  for  sale  ?    A.  I  have  heard  so. 

Q.  Was  Zion  church,  near  the  Five  Points,  sold  to  the  Ro- 
manists? A.  Yes,  sir,  it  was;  the  congregation  having  removed 
up  town  and  built  another  church. 

Q.  Was  Christ  church,  in  Anthony-street,  closed  and  sold? 
A.  It  was,  under  the  like  circumstances. 

Q.  Were  the  three  last  named  churches  Episcopal  churches  ? 
A.  They  were. 

Q.  In  the  cases  last  mentioned,  where  the  churches  were  sold, 
were  churches  required  for  the  purpose  of  accommodating 
Episcopalians  ?    A.  I  think  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  St.  Matthew's  church  made  appli- 
cation to  Trinity  for  aid  ?  A.  I  do  know  that  she  made  applica- 
tion, and  that  she  received  aid,  and  that  the  rector  addressed 
two  letters  of  thanks,  on  behalf  of  the  vestry  of  St.  Matthew's, 
for  such  aid. 

Q.  How  long  was  this  before  said  church  was  closed  ?  A.I 
don't  know. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  Trinity  church  refused  her  aid?  A.  I 
have  heard  so. 

Q  Can  you  state  the  number  of  Episcopalians  in  the  city  of 
New- York  ?    A.  No,  I  cannot. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  number  of  Episcopalians  that  belong  to 
Trinity  and  her  chapel  ?  A.  From  five  to  six  thousand,  inclu- 
ding men,  women  and  children. 

Q.  What  proportion  is  that  of  the  whole  number  of  Episcopa- 
lians in  the  city,  as  near  as  you  can  judge  ?  A.  I  cannot  answer 
this  question,  for  want  of  sufficient  data.    I  will  examine  the 


14  [Senate 

subject  and  give  an  answer.  I  estimate  the  number  of  Episco- 
palians in  the  city  of  New- York  at  from  4,000  to  4,500. 

Q.  Could  Trinity  church  now  rent  her  pews  in  the  lower  down 
town  churches?    A.  She  could  not,  except  in  a  few  instances. 

Q.  Did  not  that  fact  necessarily  compel  Trinity  to  make  those 
churches  free?  A.  No;  for  she  could  have  done  as  Grace 
church,  St.  George's  church,  Christ  church,  Zion  church  did; 
sold  her  churches  and  built  new  ones  up  town.  But  preferring 
to  keep  her  churches  down  town,  in  the  changed  condition  of 
the  lower  part  of  the  city,  it  would  not  have  been  practicable  to 
have  rented  her  pews. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  other  clergy  attached  to  the 
chapels  of  Trinity  make  annual  return  of  the  new  male  com- 
municants to  the  rector  ?  A.I  presume  that  they  do  ;  I  am 
asked  as  one  of  the  clergy,  I  presume  he  asks  the  others. 

Q.  Can  you  state  whether  the  clergy  who  make  these  returns 
from  the  various  chapels,  are  allowed  to  see  the  returns  thus 
made  ?    A.I  have  no  doubt  but  they  would  if  they  asked  it. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  them,  previous  to  the  report  of  Trinity 
Church  to  the  Legislature  in  1856  ?  A  I  cannot  say  whether  I 
have  or  not,  I  never  had  occasion  to  look  at  the  list. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  Trinity  Church  has  ever  foreclosed 
any  of  the  mortgages  taken  for  grants  made  by  her  ?  A.  I  do 
not. 

Q.  What  does  it  cost  Trinity  Church  to  support  the  two  lay 
assistants  you  spoke  of?    A.  Their  present  stipend  is  $150  each. 

Q.  Of  whom  does  the  vestry  of  Trinity  Church  consist  ?  A. 
The  rector,  two  church  wardens  and  twenty  vestrymen. 

Q.  What  other  officers  has  Trinity  Church  besides  the  mem- 
bers of  the  vestry  and  her  clergymen. 

Q.  A  comptroller  and  clerk  of  the  vestry,  both  of  whom  are 
members  of  the  vestry,  a  collector  and  one  clerk  in  the  office. 


Adjourned  to  3^  o'clock,  Monday  P.  M. 


No.  95.] 


15 


Monday  afternoon,  February  6M,  3|  o'clock  P.  M. 
Present — Senate  Committer — Senators,  Spencer,  Noxon  and 
Kamsey.    Counsel,  as  befor3,  Judge  Parker  and  0.  Meads,  Esq. 

TESTIMONY  INTRODUCED  BY  THE  VESTRY. 
Testimony  of  Rev.  Benjamin  I.  Haight,  continued. 

Q.  Do  you  think  Trinity  Church  has  done  its  utmost  to  make 
the  capital  of  the  property  of  that  corporation,  available  for  the 
founding,  support,  or  promotion  of  religious,  charitable,  or  edu- 
cational instructions  or  purposes  ?  A.  As  the  result  of  many 
years  observation,  during  the  last  ten  of  which,  I  have  been 
frequently  in  converse  with  the  Rector  and  several  of  the  senior 
members  of  the  corporation,  in  reference  to  the  appropriation 
of  their  funds  to  religious,  charitable  and  educational  purpo- 
ses, I  answer,  that  I  believe  the  Vestry  has  always  been  solici- 
tous to  make  their  property  as  available  as  possible  for  these 
great  purposes,  and,  that  when  they  have  declined  applications 
for  benefactions,  or  refrained  from  entering  upon,  or  prosecu- 
ting any  enterprize  brought  before  them,  either  by  members  of 
their  own  body,  or  by  others,  it  has  not  been  from  any  want  of 
interest  in  schemes  and  plans  of  christian  benevolence,  or  with 
any  view  of  increasing  their  own  estate,  but  solely  from  pru- 
dential considerations  mainly  growing  out  of  their  heavy  debt, 
which  has  accumulated  solely  from  their  pecuniary  grants.  I 
do  not  believe  that  any  other  body  of  intelligent  and  prudent 
christian  men  of  the  same  number,  and  chosen  in  the  same 
way — that  is,  by  a  popular  constituency — would  have  done 
more  than  the  Vestry  of  Trinity  Church,  as  constituted,  tor  the 
last  quarter  of  a  century. 

Q.  Will  you  name  the  free  Episcopal  churches  in  the  city  of 
New  York  1  A.  All  Angels,  Epiphany,  Holy  Comforter,  Our 
Saviour,  Holy  Communion,  Holy  Evangelists,  Holy  Innocents, 
Holy  Martyrs,  Nativity,  St.  Cornelius,  St.  John  the  Evangelist's, 
St.  Mary's,  and  St.  Michael's ;  the  foregoing  have  church  edifices 
proper.  Besides  these,  there  are  the  following  free  congrega- 
tions worshiping  in  halls :  the  Messiah  and  St.  Ann's.  Besides 
these,  the  following  are  at  present  suspended  :  Good  Shepherd, 


16  [Senate 

temporarily,  the  church  being  constructing;  St.  Barnabas,  St. 
Matthew's,  and  St.  Simon's.  The  former  free  church  of  St.  Jude 
has  been  merged  in  the  church  ot  St.  John  the  Evangelist. 

By  the  Committee  (a  map  presented) : 

Q.  Are  there  any  Episcopal  churches  in  the  4th,  6th,  13th 
and  14th  wards  of  the  city  of  New-York  ?    A.  There  are  none. 

Q.  In  which  of  these  wards  was  Zion  church  situated?  A.  In 
trie  6th. 

Q.  After  viewing  that  map,  do  you  still  say  that  Zion  church 
was  not  needed  there  ?  A.  Such  a  question  was  not  put  to  me. 
The  question  was  whether  it  was  required  for  Episcopalians  in 
that  vicinity.  I  answered  that  I  thought  not,  and  I  think  so 
still.  If  I  had  been  asked  whether  it  was  not  desirable  that 
there  should  be  mission  churches  in  that  and  the  other  wards, 
for  the  purpose  of  supplying  the  ministrations  of  the  gospel  to 
the  destitute  of  all  classes  and  denominations,  with  a  view  to 
their  spiritual  benefit,  and  gathering  them  into  the  Episcopal 
church,  I  should  have  answered  that  I  did  think  it  desirable. 

Q.  What  would  be  the  average  number  of  persons  that  the 
free  churchts  you  have  named  would  accommodate  ?  A.  From 
450  to  500  each. 

By  Counsel  for  Trinity  Church  : 

Q.  Though  there  are  no  Episcopal  churches  in  the  wards 
named,  are  there  Episcopal  churches  close  upon  their  confines  ? 
A.  In  the  vicinity  of  the  4th  ward  there  are  two  large  churches, 
in  the  vicinity  of  the  6th  there  is  one,  in  the  vicinity  of  the  13th 
there  are  two,  and  in  the  vicinity  of  the  14th  there  are  two. 

Rt.  Rev.  Horatio  Potter  called  and  sworn  : 

Q.  What  is  your  place  of  residence,  and  your  office  in  the 
Protestant  Episcopal  church  ?  A.  My  place  of  residence  is  in 
the  city  of  New-York,  my  office  is  Provisional  Bishop  of  the 
diocese  of  New- York. 

Q.  What  opportunities  do  your  official  position  and  duties 
afford  you  for  obtaining  information  in  regard  to  the  condition, 


No.  95.]  17 

wants  and  interests  -  of  the  various  congregations  in  your 
diocese?  A.  It  is  made  my  duty  by  canon  to  visit  peri- 
odically all  the  parishes  of  the  diocese  and  inquire  into  their 
condition,  and  to  maintain  at  all  times  general  superintendence 
over  the  churches  of  the  diocese.  To  which  I  may  add,  that 
persons  belonging  to  the  several  parishes  naturally  come  to  me 
for  advice  and  direction. 

Q.  Has  the  law  of  1814  in  regard  to  Trinity  Church  been  ac- 
quiesced in  or  not  ?  I  think  it  has  been  generally  ;  no  person 
has  appeared  in  the  courts  to  object  to  its  constitutionality  ;  had 
there  been  any  real  confidence  in  the  existence  of  a  right  in 
members  of  other  and  independent  congregations  to  be  corpora- 
tors of  Trinity  Church,  undoubtedly  that  right  would  have  been 
asserted  and  maintained  in  the  courts,  both  before  and  after 
1814  ;  for  more  than  thirty  years  after  the  passage  of  the  law  of 
1814,  no  attempt  was  made  to  procure  its  repeal  ;  there  might 
be  cases  of  individual  discontent,  as  there  will  be  with  things 
most  just  and  reasonable,  but  they  were  of  no  account  compared 
with  the  general  acquiescence  and  the  absence  of  all  formal  at- 
tempts, either  in  the  courts  or  before  the  Legislature,  to  object. 

Q.  What,  in  your  opinion,  would  be  the  effect  of  throwing 
open  the  corporation  of  Trinity  Church,  and  allowing  all  per- 
sons in  New- York,  in  communion  with  the  Protestant  Episcopal 
church,  to  become  corporators  in  that  body  7  A.  The  effect 
would  be  disastrous  in  very  many  ways  ;  in  the  first  place,  as  it 
would  be,  in  my  opinion,  a  violation  of  the  original  meaning 
and  intent  of  the  charter,  a  meaning  and  intent  recognized  and 
admitted  for  fifty  years,  it  would  constitute  an  act  of  public 
fraud  and  immorality,  so  gross  as  to  be  of  evil  influence  through- 
out the  whole  country  ;  but  besides  that,  the  immediate  opera- 
tion in  the  city  of  New-York  would  be  extremely  injurious  to 
the  peace  and  well  being  of  the  church  ;  ail  the  parishes  in  the 
city  would  be  brought  into  conflict  with  Trinity  Church  and 
with  each  other.  Trinity  Church  is  a  parish  like  any  other  in  the 
city,  except  as  to  the  amount  of  its  wealth.  Persons  who  were 
corporators  in  an  independent  parish,  having  its  own  peculiar 
interests  and  objects,  would  be  coporators  also  in  Trinity  Church, 

[Senate,  No.  95.]  2 


18  J  Senate 

where  they  would  be  present  by  their  representatives  to  embarrass 
and  control  her  parochial  operations,  and  to  take  from  her  her 
means  for  their  own  purposes  :  such  foreign  corporators  might, 
and  I  believe,  would  have  selfish  reasons  for  desiring  to  cripple 
the  parochial  work  of  Trinity  Church,  while  they  sought  to  build 
up  rival  churches  of  their  own. 

Under  such  a  system,  Trinity  Church  would  soon  cease  to  be 
a  parish,  in  the  ordinary  sense  of  the  term.  Her  parochial  work 
would  be  reduced  and  gradually  ruined;  and  she  would  become 
the  mere  holder  of  a  fund,  a  mere  financial  body,  for  whose 
wealth  many  thousands  of  persons,  cut  up  into  conflicting  and 
rival  sections,  would  be  scrambling.  The  annual  elections 
would  present  a  scene  most  grossly  unbecoming,  highly  injuri- 
ous to  the  character  of  the  church  and  to  the  interests  of  religion, 
for  those  elections  would  be  sure  to  be  severely  contested  elec- 
tions, where  several  thousand  persons  would  have  a  right  to 
vote,  and  where  there  would  be  great  temptation  among  the 
outstanding  congregations  to  swell  the  number  of  their  voters, 
by  all  sorts  of  means.  There  would  be  a  temptation  to  unfair 
combinations  among  different  parishes  and  sections  of  the  city  to 
procure  grants  in  favor  of  each  other.  All  this  would  be  a  per- 
fect anomaly  in  the  Episcopal  church.  I  know  of  no  eases  in 
which  the  same  person  is  corporator  in  the  different  parishes, 
the  parishes  being  in  a  position  to  be  rivals  to  each  other.  There 
are  instances,  probably,  in  which  a  person  is  a  corporator  in  a 
city  parish  and  also  in  a  rural  parish,  where  he  has  his  country 
residence;  but  this  is  attended  with  no  serious  evil.  In  every 
system,  whether  of  the  family,  the  State,  or  the  church,  where  a 
person  is  present  within,  to  influence,  to  control,  he  is  supposed 
to  be  a  member  of  the  system,  with  a  kindly  interest  in  it,  with 
a  generous  devotion  to  its  welfare,  and  subject  to  all  its  laws 
and  authorities.  But  if  the  corporation  of  Trinity  Church  were 
thrown  open,  you  would  probably  have  vestrymen  present  to 
vote  away  its  money,  to  control  its  counsels,  who  were  enemies 
and  aliens;  interested  in  other  parishes,  but  not  in  Trinity 
Church;  not  subject  to  its  rector,  not  under  its  religious  influ- 
ence, but  present  only  to  vex  and  harrass.    This  is  not  only  a 


No.  95.] 


19 


violation  of  all  the  principles  of  the  church,  which  require  that 
every  person  present  in  a  parish  with  any  rights  and  privileges, 
shall  be  amenable  to  the  spiritual  authority  of  the  rector,  but  is 
a  violation  of  common  sense,  which  requires  that  those  who  vote 
or  rule  in  a  body,  shall  be  bona  fide  members  of  it,  and  owe  it  a 
hearty  allegiance. 

Q.  What  is  your  view  in  regard  to  the  course  of  Trinity  Church 
in  rebuilding  Trinity  Church  at  the  head  of  Wall-street,  and  in 
building  Trinity  Chapel,  at  the  head  of  Wall-street,  and  in  build- 
ing Trinity  Chapel,  in  Twenty-fifth-street  ?  A.  I  think  it  was  a 
very  proper  course.  It  was  natural  they  should  desire  to  retain 
the  old  site  down  town,  so  long  endeared  to  them,  and  it  was 
very  important  that  the  lower  part  of  the  city,  which  was  in  a 
way  to  be  abandoned  by  all  the  other  Episcopal  congregations, 
should  not  be  abandoned  by  them.  They  owe  it  to  the  lower 
part  of  the  city  to  maintain  themselves  there,  among  the  poor, 
and  their  property  enabled  them  to  do  so.  In  regard  to  the 
building  of  Trinity  Chapel,  up  town,  many  of  their  old  parish- 
ioners had  moved  far  up  town,  with  only  very  moderate  means, 
in  many  cases,  and  it  seemed  the  duty  of  Trinity  Church  to  fol- 
low them  and  provide  for  them,  and  to  seek  to  retain  them  as 
her  parishioners.  The  erection  of  Trinity  Chapel  was  therefore 
a  proper  measure.  As  to  the  costly  character  of  the  two  edifices, 
I  consider  that  Trinity  Church  only  did  her  duty  in  making 
them  models  of  ecclesiastical  architecture.  Her  wealth  had  been 
created  mainly  by  the  growth  of  the  city.  She  therefore  owed 
to  the  city  some  contribution  in  the  way  of  beautiful  and  mag- 
nificent edifices.  And  with  her  wealth,  she  owed  it  equally  to 
the  character  of  her  own  communion.  Had  Trinity  Church,  with 
its  means,  limited  itself  to  the  erection  of  buildings  of  a  mode  ■ 
rate  cost,  I  have  no  doubt  the  parish  would  have  been  severely 
censured,  both  by  the  church  and  by  the  community  generally. 
As  a  general  thing,  I  believe  a  few  costly  churches  are  of  great 
utility  to  the  interests  of  religion.  I  have  no  doubt  that  West- 
minister Abbey  has,  in  the  course  of  ages,  been  worth  to  the 
influence  of  Divine  Truth  in  the  world,  vastly  more  than  all 
that  it  ever  cost. 


20  [Senate 

Q.  What  is  your  opinion  of  the  effect  of  the  course  of  Trinity 
Church,  in  giving  her  aid  to  churches  in  the  form  of  loans 
upon  mortgages,  rather  than  in  the  form  of  absolute  grants'? 
A.  Those  loans  were  absolute  grants  in  reality,  nobody  ever  sup- 
posed that  the  interest  or  the  principal  would  be  called  for  by 
Trinity  Church.  They  never  have  been3  in  a  single  instance, 
although  the  cases  have  been  very  numerous,  in  which  land 
mortgages  have  been  given.  When  I  consecrate  a  church,  I  al- 
ways wish  to  know  whether  there  be  any  debt.  1  never  regard 
a  mortgage  given  to  Trinity  Church,  in  the  light  of  a  debt.  I 
have  never  perceived,  I  do  not  believe,  that  such  mortgages,  in 
any  way  affect  the  independence  of  ministers,  or  laymen.  It 
is  very  common  indeed,  to  see  the  minister  and  laymen  of  a 
Church,  subject  to  a  mortgage,  voting  against  measures  favored 
by  Trinity  Church.  In  convention,  I  doubt  whether  any 'one 
remembers  or  reflects,  whether  mortgages  exist  in  particular 
quarters,  or  not.  The  effect  of  these  mortgages  has,  I  have  no 
doubt,  been  important  in  preventing  the  property  of  churches 
from  being  sold  and  alienated  from  their  sacred  use.  And  this, 
I  have  always  understood,  was  the  sole  object  of  Trinity  Church 
in  requiring  them. 

Q.  St.  Matthew's  Church  in  New- York  has  been  recently 
closed.  Was  it  the  duty  of  Trinity  Church  under  the  circum- 
stances, to  have  prevented  that  result  ?  A.  I  cannot  say,  that, 
under  all  the  circumstances  of  the  case,  I  would  have  advised 
Trinity  Church  to  do  differently  from  what  she  has  done. 

Q.  What  is  your  view  of  the  past  management  of  Trinity 
Church  in  relation  to  the  poor?  Trinity  Church  has  done  a 
great  deal  for  the  poor  in  many  ways — She  has  provided  free 
education  for  the  poor,  in  schools  and  colleges — She  has  assisted 
in  the  erection  of  between  one  and  two  hundred  ( nearly  two 
hundred  )  churches  in  the  State.  To  say  the  least,  a  very  large 
portion  of  all  these  grants  must  be  considered  as  assistance 
granted  to  those  who  had  not  the  means  of  doing  all  for  them- 
selves. She  has  granted  annuities  in  many  cases  to  aged  clergy- 
men and  to  the  widows  and  orphans  of  deceased  clergymen. 
She  has  schools  for  poor  children  connected  with  several  of  her 
churches  and  chapels.    And  finally,  all  her  churches,  down 


No.  95.]  21 

town,  Trinity  Church,  St.  Paul's,  St.  John's  and  Old  St.  George's, 
supported  by  her,  are,  to  a  very  large  extent,  in  the  nature  of 
a  free  provision  for  the  poor.  And  beside  these,  there  are  se- 
veral other  churches,  situated  in  districts  much  occupied  by  the 
poor,  which  are  largely  assisted  by  Trinity  Church, 

Q.  It  is  alleged  that  in  some  districts  of  New  York  there  is  a 
want  of  adequate  religious  provision  for  the  poor  5  can  you  state 
any  facts  bearing  upon  this  matter  1  A.  Some  portions  of  the 
city  are  chiefly  occupied  by  Germans;  other  inhabitants  remove 
from  those  sections.  There  are  consequently  fewer  persons  than 
Ave  might  at  first  suppose  capable  of  being  gathered  into  Epis- 
copal congregations.  There  may  be,  and  probably  is,  after  all, 
a  deficiency  of  church  accommodation,  but  it  is  not  as  great  in 
some  quarters  as  it  seems  to  be. 

By  the  Committee  : 

Q.  Do  you  think  in  seeking  to  retain  the  parishioners  in 
Trinity  chapel,  it  was  right  to  seek  to  cut  them  off  as  corpora- 
tors 1  A.  I  have  not  understood  that  it  was  contemplated  by 
Trinity  church  to  cut  off  her  parishioners  as  corporators.  In 
the  abstract  I  should  say  it  would  not  be  right  to  do  so.  I  sup- 
posed it  was  intended  to  prevent  a  rush  of  strangers  from  com- 
ing in  and  making  themselves  corporators  from  interested 
motives. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  the  lease  under  which  the  pews  in 
Trinity  chapel  were  leased?    A.  I  have  not. 

[Lease  shown  the  witness]. 

Q.  After  examining  the  lease,  do  you  not  think  it  would  cut 
them  off  as  corporators  ?    A.  It  seems  to  do  so,  sir. 

Q.  What  appropriations  were  made  by  Trinity  Church,  for 
three  years  previous  to  April  1855,  to  institutions  of  charity, 
benevolence  or  learning  in  the  city  of  New  York  ?  A.  I  have 
been  in  the  city  of  New  York  only  a  portion  of  that  time,  about 
a  year  and  three  or  four  months,  and  I  am  only  generally  cog- 
nizant of  the  fact  that  Trinity  Church  has  been  continually 
making  grants  to  one  object  and  another,  without  fixing  my 


22 


| Senate 


attention  to  any  in  particular.  I  cannot  say  whether  the  grants 
here  referred  to  are  included  in  the  grants  that  have  been  made. 

Q.  Can  you  mention  any  appropriations  of  the  kind  spoken  of, 
made  at  any  time,  and  if  so,  at  what  time,  and  what  were  they  ? 
A.  I  know  that  grants  have  been  made  to  Columbia  College  and 
I  believe,  to  Trinity  school.  I  am  not  able  to  answer  fully; 
cannot  specify  the  time.  I  may  be  permitted  to  say  that  my 
attention  has  been  more  particularly  directed  to  grants  at  large 
for  church  buildings  than  to  those  objects. 

Q.  Can  you  say  that  you  know  of  any  such  appropriations, 
made  within  the  last  ten  or  twenty  years?  A.  I  cannot  say 
that  I  can. 

Q.  You  answer  the  first  question  that  the  law  of  1814  has 
been  acquiesced  in ;  has  it  been  by  the  church  in  the  city  of 
New  York  generally,  outside  of  Trinity  ?  A.  My  impression  is, 
that  until  within  a  recent  period,  twelve  or  fifteen  years,  it  has 
been. 

Q.  During  that  twelve  or  fifteen  years,  has  not  the  great  body 
of  the  Episcopal  church,  outside  of  Trinity,  in  the  city  of  New- 
York,  been  dissatisfied  with  the  law  of  1814?  A.  I  should  not 
think  so;  but,  as  I  said  before,  my  acquaintance  with  New- York, 
until  within  a  year  or  two,  has  been  only  a  very  general  one, 
and  my  opinion  is  partly  formed  from  what  I  have  known 
myself,  and  partly  an  inference  from  the  absence  of  any  formal 
attempt  to  controvert  the  law. 

Q.  Previous  to  the  law  of  1814,  did,  or  did  not  the  inhabitants 
of  New- York,  in  communion  with  the  Protestant  Episcopal 
church,  outside  of  Trinity,  exercise  and  enjoy  the  right  of  voting 
for  wardens  and  vestrymen  of  Trinity  church  ?  A.  I  have 
always  understood  that  they  did  not. 

Q.  Do  you  not  understand  that  right  to  have  been  guaranteed 
under  the  charter  to  those  in  communion  with  the  church,  and 
not  belonging  to  the  parish  of  Trinity  church,  in  the  city  of  New- 
York  ?  A.  I  do  not.  I  may  add,  that  the  charter  of  my  own 
late  parish,  St.  Peter's,  Albany,  is  in  the  same  terms,  and  was 


No.  95.  J 


23 


never  held  to  guarantee  rights  to  any  one  outside  the  parish. 
When  the  second  congregation  was  formed,  St.  Paul's,  in  this 
city,  (Albany,)  St.  Peter's  church,  having  such  a  charter,  had 
property,  to  which  the  members  of  St.  Paul's  church  never  set 
up  any  claim. 

Q.  What  difficulties  would  arise  in  each  of  the  Episcopal 
churches  in  the  city  of  New-York  sending  a  delegate  to  a  con- 
vention to  choose  wardens  and  vestrymen  to  take  care  of  the 
fund  now  administered  by  Trinity  church  ?  A,  I  think  it  would 
be  possible  to  suggest  many  difficulties  of  detail.  But  I  have  a 
general  answer.  The  church  is  governed  in  accordance  with 
long  tried,  well  settled,  traditional  principles  and  practices,  the 
precise  nature  of  which  is  thoroughly  understood  from  long 
experience.  The  system  suggested  would  be  an  entire  anomaly 
in  the  church,  both  in  this  country  and  in  England,  and  I  should 
think  a  very  dangerous  one  to  adopt. 

Q.  What  has  the  government  of  the  church  to  do  with  the 
administration  of  this  fund  %  A.  The  church  knows  of  no  dis- 
tinction between  the  administration  of  church  funds  and 
matters  purely  spiritual.  They  are  all  part  and  parcel  of  the 
same  system.  She  does  not  know  of  money  in  any  secular 
sense.  I  may  add,  in  the  case  of  every  known  church  in  this 
country  and  in  England,  the  same  body  that  regulates  the  spir- 
itual concerns  of  a  parish  regulates  also  its  church  fund  as  a 
religious  act. 

Q.  Is  not  the  administration  of  this  fund  entirely  and  abso- 
lutely separate  from  all  the  religious  and  ecclesiastical  care  of 
the  church,  as  a  religious  society  1    A,  I  think  not. 

Q.  Wherein  does  she  exercise  any  control  2  A.  The  imme- 
diate disposal  of  this  fund  is  ordered  in  the  presence  of  and  by 
the  rector,  wardens  and  vestrymen,  of  the  parish.  They  are 
both  immedialely  responsible  to  me  as  the  bishop  of  the  diocese, 
and  are  amenable  to  the  church  of  this  diocese  assembled  in 
convention.  I  do  not  mean,  however,  to  be  understood  that  I 
supervise  the  details  of  appropriations,  or  that  my  assent  is 
essential  to  the  validity  of  any  grants  by  the  vestry. 


24  [Senate 

Q.  Is  not  the  care  of  the  bishop,  rector,  wardens  and  vestry- 
men, theoretical,  and  the  practical  care  of  this  fund  entrusted  to 
a  committee  of  the  wardens  and  vestrymen  ?  A.  I  think  the 
care  of  the  bishop,  rector,  wardens  and  vestrymen,  is  not  theo- 
retical, but  practical,  though  the  bishop,  of  course,  is  not  a  mem- 
ber of  this  body,  and  has  only  a  general  oversight  over  the  af- 
fairs of  the  church.  As  in  any  large  body,  which  in  this  case 
amounts  to  twenty-three  persons,  there  is  a  sub-committee  which, 
however,  takes  cognizance  not  merely  of  money  matters,  but  of 
matters  bearing  upon  the  spiritual  well-being  of  the  parish,  and 
which  committee  is  appointed  for  the  convenience  of  arranging 
and  preparing  business  for  the  full  meeting  of  the  vestry,  when 
it  is  deliberately  passed  upon.  And  I  have  to  say,  furthermore, 
that  the  care  of  the  bishop  and  the  rector  is  a  reality,  inasmuch 
as  if  the  members  of  the  vestry  violated  their  duty  they  would 
be  subject  to  be  admonished  and  disciplined  by  the  rector,  and  if 
they  and  the  rector  together,  either  or  both,  clearly  violated 
their  duty  so  as  to  be  adjudged  guilty  of  an  offence  capable  of 
being  made  evident  to  me  or  the  bishop,  they  would  certainly  be 
liable  to  be  disciplined  by  him. 

Q.  Do  the  wardens  and  vestrymen  of  Trinity  Church  report 
to  the  bishop  or  to  the  convention  their  action  in  relation  to 
grants  or  aid  to  churches,  or  in  relation  to  their  general  affairs  ? 
A.  They  do  not  formally  make  a  full  report  of  all  grants,  but 
from  the  interest  which  attaches  to  the  affairs  of  that  parish,  I 
believe  its  internal  business  is  better  known  to  the  bishop  and 
church  at  large,  than  the  affairs  of  any  other  wealthy  Episcopal 
congregation  in  the  city  of  New-York.  I  am  not  aware  that 
there  is  any  concealment. 

Q.  Do  they  make  an  informal  report  ?  A.  Various  reports 
have  been  made  at  different  times  of  the  grants  of  Trinity  Church,- 
and  I  believe  their  proceedings  generally  transpire  speedily.  In 
some  instances  action  is  reported  to  me  immediately. 

Q.  If  they  make  no  report  to  you,  how  have  you  any  super- 
vision over  their  affairs,  except  theoretically?  A.  The  general 
course  of  the  administration  of  affairs  in  the  parish  is  well 
known.    I  presume  it  will  be  found  that  in  every  year  the 


No.  95.J 


25 


receipts  and  the  expenditures  of  the  parish  are  known  to  a  very- 
considerable  number  of  persons  most  interested. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  whatever  of  the  managed  affairs 
of  Trinity  Church  ?  A.  I  have  only  a  general  knowledge  of 
those  of  my  parish. 

Q.  What  greater  reason  was  there  for  abandoning  the  church 
at  the  Five  Points,  and  Christ  Church,  than  for  abandoning 
Trinity  Church  at  the  head  of  Wall  street  1  A.  The  church  at 
the  Five  Points  and  Christ  Church,  were  independent  parishes^ 
and  moved,  I  presume,  of  their  own  option  to  a  more  eligible 
portion  of  the  city.  Trinity  Church  might  have  removed  to  a 
more  eligible  portion  of  the  city,  so  far  as  the  character  of  her 
worshipers,  for  wealth,  were  concerned;  but  preferred  to  retain 
a  very  old  site,,  the  oldest  I  believe  in  the  city,  and  to  continue 
to  exercise  her  ministry  in  that  very  destitute  portion  of  the 
city. 

Q.  Were  there  not  as  strong  reasons  for  retaining  Zion  church  at 
the  Five  Points,  as  there  were  for  retaining  Trinity  upon  her 
site  1  A.  I  was  not  as  well  acquainted  with  the  position  of  Zion 
church  in  those  days  as  with  that  of  Trinity,  and  it  may  have 
been  very  desirable  that  a  church  should  have  been  retained  in 
the  place  of  Zion  church. 

Q.  Is  or  is  not  the  effect  of  making  loans  to  churches  and  tak 
ing  back  bonds  and  mortgages  for  the  money  so  loaned,  to  cause 
the  churches  thus  receiving  loans  to  vote  in  convention  for  the 
particular  views  Trinity  Church  espouses?  A.  I  can  only  judge 
from  my  own  experience  and  observation,  and  so  judging  should 
think  not.  I  can  recall  many  cases  where  such  mortgages 
exist,  and  where  the  rector  and  the  lay  delegates  quite  habitual- 
ly vote  on  a  side  different  from  Trinity  Church.  My  attention 
has  never  been  called  to  any  case  where  the  independence  of  the 
rector  and  laity  seemed  to  have  been  impaired  in  consequence 
of  the  existence  of  any  mortgage. 

Q.  Do  or  do  you  not  know  that  in  the  grants  of  Trinity 
Church,  she  aids  ten  churches  classed  as  "  high  church,"  where 
she  aids  one  of  opposite  views  1    A.  I  do  not  know  that  she 


26 


[Senate 


does  ;  it  may  seem  strange,  but  I  never  have  looked  at  the 
grants  of  Trinity  Church  to  see  how  that  was. 

Q.  Can  you  state  the  comparative  number  of  the  congregations 
known  as  "  high  church  "  in  this  diocese,  and  those  known  of 
the  opposite  character  1  A.  I  can  suppose  that  there  are  many 
congregations  that  would  not  care  to  have  either  term  applied  ; 
but  if  the  line  were  to  be  strictly  drawn,  including  on  one  side 
or  the  other  every  congregation,  I  suppose  there  would  be  five 
or  six  of  the  "  high  church  "  to  one  of  the  '  low." 

Q.  What  is  the  proportion  in  the  city  of  New- York  ?  I  am 
not  so  well  informed  in  regard  to  the  city  of  New-York  as  in 
regard  to  the  whole  diocese,  because  a  general  vote  is  sometimes 
taken  in  convention  showing  the  comparative  numbers  in  the 
whole  diocese,  but  nothing  of  the  same  kind  occurs  to  show  the 
proportion  in  the  city,  yet  I  have  no  doubt  that  the  proportion 
of  what  would  be  called  "  low  church  "  in  the  city,  is  somewhat 
larger  than  in  the  diocese  generally. 

Q.  Was  there  not  a  time  in  the  city  of  New- York,  when  all 
Episcopalians  in  that  city  had  a  right  to  vote  at  the  elections  of 
Trinity  Church  1  A.  I  am  not  aware  that  there  was  any  such 
time,  unless  it  was  at  a  very  early  period  when  all  Epicopalians 
were  members  of  that  parish. 

Q.  What  greater  difficulty  would  there  be  in  managing  a 
larger  property  of  the  church  through  the  convention,  than  there 
is  in  managing  the  Episcopal  Fund'?  A.  So  that  they  were 
rightfully  possessed  of  a  large  property,  I  think  they  might  be 
able  to  manage  it. 

By  Counsel  for  Trinity  Church. 

Q.  Say,  whether  there  is  not,  necessarily,  a  most  intimate 
connection  between  the  spiritual  and  financial  affairs  of  a  parish, 
growing  out  of  the  fact,  that  the  funds  are  to  be  applied  with 
reference  to  spiritual  interests  ?    A.  Undoubtedly. 

Q.  Had  Trinity  any  control  over  the  removal  of  Zion  Church 
from  the  Five  Points,  or  Christ  Church  from  Anthony  street  1 
A.  I  am  not,  aware  that  she  had. 


No.  95.]  27 

Q.  If  it  be  true,  that  in  eight,  out  of  the  past  ten  years,  an 
average  of  hardly  one  in  ten  of  the  corporators*of  Trinity  Church 
appeared  at  the  vestry  elections  of  Trinity  Church,  is  this  a 
state  of  things  peculiar  to  that  parish,  and  does  it  indicate 
a  torpor?"  A.  It  is  quite  the  ordinary  condition  of  things 
throughout  the  diocese,  I  should  think.  It  is  generally  rather 
a  favorable  indication,  than  otherwise,  implying  satisfaction 
with  the  administration  of  the  affairs.  As  a  general  thing 
throughout  the  diocese,  and  throughout  the  country,  probably, 
you  will  find  few  voters  present,  unless  there  is  some  trouble. 

Q.  How  was  it,  during  the  twenty-two  years  that  you  were 
Rector  of  St.  Peter's  Church  in  Albany  1  A.  I  suppose,  out  of 
one  hundred  and  twenty-five  or  one  hundred  and  thirty  corpora- 
tors, there  were,  on  an  average,  from  six  to  ten  persons  present 
at  annual  vestry  meetings. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  Trinity  Church  has  done  its  utmost  to 
make  the  capital  of  the  property  of  that  corporation,  available 
for  the  founding,  support,  or  promotion  of  religious,  charitable, 
or  educational  institutions,  or  purposes'?  A.  It  is  a  very  diffi- 
cult question  for  any  one  to  answer,  I  have  had  some  plans  that  I 
have  wished,  and  intend  to  propose  to  the  Rector  and  vestry  of 
Trinity  Church,  but  I  was  met,  in  turning  the  matter  in  my  own 
mind,  on  the  threshold,  with  the  fact,  that  Trinity  Church  has 
already  a  debt  of,  between  $600,000  and  700,000  ;  She  is  con- 
stantly beset  by  various  applications,  for  important  objects,  and 
has  been  making  grants,  whenever  she  felt  herself  warranted 
in  doing  so  ;  and  I  have  felt  that  there  might  be  difficulties 
about  raising  large  sums  of  money  at  present,  and  having  en- 
tire confidence  in  the  probity  and  good-will  of  the  vestry,  I  felt 
unwilling  to  press  them  to  exertions  beyond  what  their  own 
judgment  warranted.  Whether  they  have  ever  made  any  mis- 
takes, or  omitted  to  make  appropriations,  when  they  ought  to 
have  done  so,  I  am  sure  I  am  not  able  to  sa)  ,  nor  do  I  consider 
it  a  very  material  question  in  the  present  aspect  of  affairs. 

Q.  Is  it  the  practice  of  the  Vestry  to  consult  with  the  bishop 
of  the  church  with  reference  to  making  or  refusing  grants  1 


28 


| Senate 


A.  It  is  not;  I  maybe  spoken  to  in  some  instances,  but  I  par- 
ticularly wish  to  avoid  it.  The  applications  will  always  be  very 
much  more  numerous  than  can  possibly  be  granted  under  any 
conceivable  state  of  things.  If  I  was  known  to  interfere  in  the 
matter  of  appropriations,  my  duties  and  responsibilities  would 
be  very  largely  increased  indeed,  without  any  corresponding 
benefit  to  the  church.  I  have  felt  obliged  to  have  it  understood 
in  the  diocese  that  I  could  not  act  in  behalf  of  applicants. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  us  whether  Trinity  Church  has,  within  the 
past  twenty  years,  given  any  lots  of  land  for  any  purpose  what- 
ever, except  the  burial  plot  spoken  of  in  the  report  ?  A.  I  don't 
know  whether  she  has  or  not. 

Recess  to  to-morrow  at  4  p.  m. 


Thursday  Afternoon,  Feb.  17, 

Present,  Senate  Committee,  Messrs.  Spencer,  Noxon,  and  Ram- 
sey; Judge  Parker  and  0.  Meads,  Esq.,  counsel  for  Trinity  Cor- 
poration. 

Rev.  Jesse  Pound  recalled,  examined  by  Counsel  for  Trinity 
Church. 

Q.  Were  you  the  Pastor  of  St.  Matthew's  church  at  the  time 
it  was  closed  1    A.  I  was. 

Q.  What  other  Episcopal  churches  were  near  St.  Matthew's  ? 
A.  There  were  several,  St.  Luke's  St.  Clement's,  and  there  was 
a  recently  organized  congregation  called  the  St.  John  the  Evan- 
gelist, first  called  St.  Jude's;  these  were  all  that  were  in  the  im- 
mediate neighborhood. 

Q.  Which  of  these  was  the  last  organized  ?  A.  St.  John  the 
Evangelist,  or  St.  Jude's  as  formerly  named. 

Q.  Was  there  in  your  opinion  any  necessity  for  the  organiza- 
tion of  St.  Jude's  ?  A.  I  think  not,  the  wants  of  the  neighbor- 
hood were  abundantly  met  by  existing  corporations. 

Q.  How  long  before  St.  Matthew's  was  closed  was  St.  Jude's 
organized'?  A.  I  think  about  eight  years;  but  would  not  be 
certain  as  to  the  precise  time. 


No.  95.] 


29 


Q.  How  near  was  St.  Jude's  church  to  St.  Clement's  1  A.  It 
was  very  near  the  length  of  one  block. 

Q.  How  far  was  St.  Luke's  from  St.  Matthew's  ?  A.  The 
distance  ot  three  blocks.  St.  Luke's  was  nearest  to  St.  Mat- 
thew's. 

Q.  How  far  is  St.  Jude's,  or  St.  John's  the  Evangelist,  from 
St.  Matthew's   A.  It  is  within  three  blocks. 

The  following  letter  was  here  introduced  and  read  : 


To  the  Rector J  Church-wardens  and  Vestrymen  of  Trinity  Church  : 
Gentlemen — The  undersigned,  in  behalf  of  St.  Matthew's 
church,  in  this  city,  beg  leave  to  address  you  for  the  purpose  of 
discharging  a  duty,  which  is  as  pleasing  to  our  own  feelings  as 
we  hope  it  will  prove  acceptable  to  your's,  and  which  has  only 
been  thus  long  delayed  by  the  fact  of  our  not  having  had  a 
regular  and  full  vestry  meeting  during  the  past  summer.  The 
duty  alluded  to,  is  that  of  presenting  to  your  honorable  body 
our  very  sincere  and  most  grateful  acknowledgments  for  the 
annual  appropriation  you  have  been  pleased  to  make  to  the 
parish  we  represent.  We  beg  leave,  most  sincerely,  to  assure 
you  of  our  grateful  appreciation  of  this  act  of  kindness  and 
consideration,  and  that  we  regard  the  value  of  the  stipend,  and 
our  obligation  to  its  donors,  vastly  increased  by  the  fact  that  it 
was  unsolicited.  We  consider  it  to  be  the  province  of  St.  Mat- 
thew's to  test  the  practicability  and  efficiency  of  the  free  church 
principle,  and  since  God's  providence  has  placed  us  in  a  condi- 
tion to  test  it  fairly  and  fully,  we  are  determined  so  to  do,  that 
if  it  fail  here,  it  may  be  regarded  as  a  total  failure.  Accept 
therefor  our  most  sincere  thanks  for  giving  us  something  on 
which  our  rector  may  rely  while  this  experiment  is  being  made ; 
and  praying  God  to  bless  your  exertions  in  discharging  the  obli- 
gations of  your  high  trust  and  mighty  responsibilities,  we  are, 
gentlemen,  very  sincerely, 


New-York,  October  20th,  1847. 


(Signed,) 

John  McRae, 
Henry  Fisher, 


Your  grateful  friends  and  brethren, 
,)  JESSE  POUND,  Rector. 


Wardens. 


30 


[Senate 


Q.  Is  that  your  signature  affixed  to  the  letter?    A.  Yes,  sir. 
Q.  Are  the  others  the  signatures  of  the  wardens  I  A.  Yes,  sir. 

The  witness  desired  to  explain,  as  follows:  St.  Matthew's 
church  was  first  given  to  the  City  Mission  Society.  To  that 
society,  Trinity  had  been  accustomed  to  give  an  annual  stipend, 
to  each  of  their  stations.  That  society  became  unable  to  sustain 
itself.  The  City  Mission  Society  paid  the  stipend  to  each  church, 
of  which  Trinity  paid  $600,  which  was  one-half.  There  were 
three  churches.  The  action  of  Trinity  church  vestry,  to  which 
that  letter  refers,  was  subsequent  to  their  being  given  up  by  the 
City  Mission  Society,  and  consequent  upon  that  act.  The  $400 
was,  therefore,  in  lieu  of  the  $600  which  had  formerly  been  paid 
to  the  City  Mission  Society. 

Again,  in  relation  to  the  reasons  which  led  to  the  founding  of 
St.  Matthews  Church.  It  was  first  purchased  by  an  individual 
wholly,  and  given  to  the  City  Mission  Society,  in  order  that  it 
might  supply  free  church  accommodations  to  that  neighborhood. 
The  location  of  the  church  was  not  esteemed  a  desirable  one, 
chiefly  on  account  of  its  nearness  to  St.  Luke's;  but  the  property 
was  an  eligible  one  and  such  as  could  be  paid  for  with  the  means 
in  hand.  Before  any  step  was  taken  towards  the  purchase,  or 
any  third  individual  knew  of  such  intention,  Bishop  Eastman 
and  myself  waited  upon  Mr.  Forbes,  then  the  rector  of  St.  Lukes. 
Dr.  Eastman  stated  to  him  his  purpose,  and  asked  him  if  he  had 
any  objection  arising  from  its  nearness  to  St.  Lukes.  He  replied 
he  had  not  the  least,  and  bid  us  God  speed.  He  further  observed 
that  he  could  have  no  objection,  inasmuch  as  there  had  not  been 
a  pew  or  sitting  to  let  in  St.  Lukes  for  years,  and  there  were 
constant  applications  for  them  which  they  could  not  supply. 
He  further  observed  that  were  the  church  on  the  lot  adjoining 
St.  Lukes  he  would  have  no  objection. 

Q.  How  long  before  the  closing  of  St.  Matthews  did  you 
adopt  the  practice  of  renting  the  pews  1  A.  About  three  years. 
The  practice  was  continued  until  the  close  of  the  church,  but 
the  rent  was  nominal,  ranging  from  $5  to  $20.  The  only  object 
was  to  produce  income  enough  to  pay  expenses. 


No.  95.] 


31 


Q.  Who  was  the  first  rector  of  St.  Jude?  A.  Rev.  R.  C. 
Shineal. 

Q.  Did  he  afterwards  become  a  Presbyterian  minister? 
A.  He  did,  soon  after  he  left  the  parish. 

By  the  committee, 

Q.  It  appears  by  the  report  of  Trinity  Church,  that  she  gave 
annually  to  St.  Lukes  §2,100.  "What  portion  of  that  sum  given 
to  St.  Matthew's  would  have  sustained  that  church?  A,  One- 
half  of  it. 

Q.  By  giving  one-half  that  sum  that  property  would  then 
have  been  preserved  to  the  Episcopal  Church  in  the  city  ?  A.  It 
would. 

Q.  Did  Trinity  Church  receive  back  from  the  City  Mission 
Society  any  considerable  portion  of  her  advances  to  that  institu- 
tion ?  A.  I  have  reason  to  believe  they  did  from  the  sale  of  the 
property,  but  not  from  the  society. 

Q.  How  was  the  property  sold  ?  A.  It  was  sold  under  fore- 
closure of  mortgages. 

Q.  Did  Trinity  Church  hold  mortgages  upon  those  two 
churches  ?   A.  I  presume  not. 

Q.  How  then  did  she  collect  the  money.  A.  The  church  of 
the  Holy  Evangelists  was  bought  and  paid  for  wholly  by  contri- 
butions of  private  churchmen.  The  church  of  the  Epiphany 
partly  so;  the  other  part,  as  I  have  been  informed  by  the  trea- 
surer of  that  society,  was  obtained  by  mortgage  of  the  two 
churches  to  the  Howard  insurance  company  for  $13,000.  When 
the  security  ceased  there  was  no  one  to  pay  the  interest,  and  the 
mortgages  were  foreclosed.  Trinity,  as  I  have  been  informed, 
became  the  purchaser.  The  Holy  Evangelist's  was  sold,  as  I 
have  been  informed,  for  $15,000. 

Q.  What  description  of  people  made  up  the  congregation  of 
St.  Matthews?  A.  They  were  persons  in  humble  circumstances; 
large  proportion  of  them  were  poor.  There  was  not  a  wealthy 
individual  in  the  congregation. 


32 


[Senate 


What  description  of  persons  made  up  the  congregation  at  St. 
Luke's  ?  A.  They  were  of  a  more  respectable  class,  and  much 
more  means. 

By  Judge  Parker. 

Q.  You  have  stated  that  half  the  allowance  made  to  St.  Luke's 
would  have  sustained  St.  Matthews  church.  Do  you  mean  that 
it  would  pay  the  indebtedness  of  the  church  and  the  mortgage 
on  the  parsonage  1    A.  No,  it  could  not  do  that. 

Q.  How  much  would  it  have  taken  to  do  that  and  to  put  the 
church  edifice  in  repair?  A.  About  $6,000.  That  would  have 
left  the  whole  property  clear.  An  annual  stipend  of  $1,000 
from  Trinity,  after  paying  this  indebtedness  and  repairs,  would 
have  paid  its  rector  $1 ,000  per  year  and  all  ordinary  expenses 
of  the  parish.  The  whole  annual  expenses  of  the  parish  never 
exceeded  $1,700.  I  am  now  rector  of  the  St.  Luke's  church,  at 
Rossville,  Staten  Island,  and  receive  an  annual  salary  of  $400 
and  a  parsonage. 

By  the  committee. 

Q.  What  was  St.  Matthews  worth  at  the  time  it  was  mort- 
gaged? A.  It  was  considered  a  cheap  purchase  at  $1,500.  It 
has  been  reconveyed  to  Bishop  Eastman,  the  donor,  who  origi- 
nally gave  it  to  the  City  Mission  Society. 

Rev.  William  Berrian^  Rector  of  Trinity  Church,  called  and 
sworn : 

Examination  by  counsel  for  Trinity  Church. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  a  minister  of  Trinity  Church  1 
A.  I  am  in  the  46th  year  of  my  ministry  in  that  parish;  I  was 
nearly  seventeen  years  assistant  minister,  two  years  assistant  rec- 
tor, and  have  now  been  upwards  of  twenty-six  years  rector  of 
the  same. 

Q.  State  whether,  from  this  long  connection  with  the  parish 
and  your  official  station,  you  have  become  very  familiar  with  its 
concerns  1  A.  Legal  questions  being  excepted,  there  are  pro- 
bably few  more  so. 


No.  95.J 


33 


Q.  What  particular  facilities  have  you  for  this  kind  of  infor- 
mation from  your  position  as  rector  1  A.I  preside  at  every 
meeting  of  the  vestry,  and  as  presiding  officer  all  its  business 
passes  me  as  presiding  officer  in  the  first  instance,  and  if  it  be 
referred  either  to  special  committees  or  the  standing  committee, 
is  generally  more  or  less  known  to  me  in  its  progress,  and  always, 
of  course,  (unless  referred  with  power,)  before  the  final  action 
upon  it. 

Q.  Has  your  attention  been  drawn  to  the  affairs  of  this  cor- 
poration in  any  other  way  which  might  make  you  still  more 
familiar  with  them  1  A.  A  few  years  since,  I  wrote  the  history 
of  Trinity  Church,  the  materials  for  which  were  drawn  from 
the  most  authentic  and  reliable  sources,  and  with  as  much  re- 
gard to  truthfulness  and  accuracy,  as  honesty  of  purpose  and 
labor  and  care  could  possibly  make  it.  I  have,  since  that,  writ- 
ten a  vindication  of  this  corporation,  in  a  pamphlet  entitled 
"  Facts  against  Fancy,"  from  the  unjust  and  unmerited  asper- 
sions which  have  been  cast  upon  it,  and  brought  down  the  list 
of  its  gifts  and  bounties  very  nearly  to  the  present  time.  I  have 
also  recently  prepared  a  report  to  the  vestry  on  the  actual  work- 
ing of  the  system  in  our  parish  under  its  present  arrangements, 
which  could  scarcely  fail,  from  its  beneficent  results,  to  satisfy 
every  candid  and  unprejudiced  mind. 

Q.  Eeing  so  familiar  with  the  affairs  of  Trinity  Church,  why 
did  you  not  testify  before  this  committee  at  its  sessions  in  the 
city  of  New  York  1  and  why  did  not  all  the  assistant  ministers 
testify  1  A.  I  was  not  summoned  by  the  committee,  and  only 
three  out  of  eight  of  the  assistant  ministers  were;  on  what 
grounds  the  discrimination  was  made  it  is  impossible  for  me  to 
tell. 

Q.  Is  there  any  foundation  for  the  charge  that  the  standing 
committee  possess  nearly  all  the  reliable  knowledge  of  the  affairs 
of  the  corporation  1   A.  In  no  degree  whatever. 

Q.  Of  whom  does  the  standing  committee  consist  and  when  is 
it  chosen 't  A.  The  standing  committee  consists  of  the  Comp- 
troller, the  clerk,  and  six  other  members  of  the  body,  who  are 
selected  from  the  whole  number  of  the  vestry,  consisting  of 
twenty-two  members,  on  account  of  their  supposed  preeminent 

[Senate,  No.  95.]  3 


34 


[Senate 


fitness  for  the  proper  consideration  of  the  subjects  referred  to 
them.    The  standing  committee  are  elected  every  year. 

Q.  What  is  the  usual  course  of  proceeding  in  regard  to  the 
matters  referred  to  the  standing  committee  ?  A.  It  is  merely 
a  matter  of  reference  to  report  on  them  after  due  consideration. 

Q.  Have  the  vestry  in  the  meantime  no  control  in  the  matter 
and  no  voice  nor  influence  in  the  course  of  its  proceedings  1 
A.  So  far  from  this,  a  full  and  circumstantial  written  report  is 
made  by  the  standing  committee  at  each  monthly  meeting  of 
the  vestry,  of  all  that  has  been  considered  and  acted  upon  since 
the  last  meeting  of  the  body,  as  well  as  very  often  upon  matters 
undecided  and  postponed. 

Q.  Are  the  recommendations  of  the  standing  committee  con- 
clusive 1  A.  By  no  means  ;  they  come  back  to  the  body  un- 
doubtedly with  great  weight,  from  the  care  with  which  they 
are  made  up,  but  not  in  all  cases  with  hearty  consent  and  im- 
plicit submission  ;  and  hence,  very  often  when  not  approved  by 
the  vestry,  they  are  either  sent  back  to  the  committee  for  recon- 
sideration or  at  once  rejected. 

Q.  It  is  stated  that  two  of  the  assistant  ministers  of  the  parish 
have  made  several  efforts  to  obtain  a  list  of  the  corporators,  but 
unsuccessfully,  can  you  throw  any  light  on  this  point  1  A.  In 
regard  to  one  of  the  cases  which  I  suppose  to  be  alluded  to,  if 
right  in  my  conjecture  I  think  that  I  can.  Bishop  Wainwright 
applied  to  the  rector  for  a  loan  of  the  book  containing  the  names 
of  the  corporators,  and  subsequently  modified  his  application  to 
examine  and  take  a  copy  of  it,  if  he  deemed  it  expedient.  The 
rector  replied,  "  with  respect  to  the  right  of  any  corporator  to 
examine  the  book  there  cannot  be  a  doubt,  but  the  taking  a  copy 
of  the  same  is  a  question  I  do  not  feel  competent  to  decide." 
The  matter  was  submitted  to  the  vestry  who  unanimously  adopted 
the  following  resolution  :  "  Resolved^  That  the  Right  Rev.  Pro- 
visional Bishop  of  the  diocese  be  permitted  to  inspect  the  book, 
containing  the  names  of  the  corporators,  and  to  make  such  ex- 
tracts and  copies  as  he  should  think  proper."  This  list  was 
afterwards  drawn  out  and  handed  to  the  Bishop  by  the  sexton 
of  St.  Pauls.    The  application  for  the  list  was  made  to  the 


No.  95.] 


35 


rector,  beeatise  the  book  was  sent  to  him  for  the  correction  of 
the  list  by  his  annnal  statement  of  the  new  communicants  which 
had  been  added  to  the  parish,  and  the  losses  which  it  had  sus- 
tained by  removals  and  deaths. 

Q.  Is  the  list  of  the  corporators  of  Trinity  Church  kept  in 
the  joint  charge  of  the  Comptroller  and  Rector?  A.  There 
seems  to  have  been  some  misapprehension  on  this  subject.  The 
list  is  kept  in  the  vestry  office,  and  is  under  the  sole  custody 
ef  the  Comptroller.  My  only  agency  in  regard  to  this  list,  is, 
to  make  an  annual  statement  on  the  meeting  of  the  Vestry,  im- 
mediately preceding  the  election  of  wardens  and  vestrymen  at 
Easter  ;  of  the  names  of  the  new  communicants,  which  have 
been  added  in  the  interval,  and  the  decrease  of  the  number  in 
the  same  period,  by  death,  or  removal  ;  in  order  to  render  the 
list  more  accurate  and  complete.  This  is  done  regularly  every 
year,  and  how  one  vestry-man,  if  accustomed  to  be  in  his  place, 
and  giving  any  proper  attention  to  the  business  before  him, 
could  have  been  ignorant  of  the  purpose  for  which  it  was  done, 
or  another,  having  never  seen  this  list,  a  privilege  which  he 
had  a  right  to  demand,  but,  which  he  never  appears  to  have 
claimed  ;  is  to  me  a  matter  of  surprise. 

Q.  State,  whether  the  book  containing  this  list,  is  usually 
taken  to  the  place,  where  the  election  of  Wardens  and  Vestry- 
men is  held  1  A.  I  know  that  it  is  frequently,  if  not  uniformly, 
and  I  believe  that  it  is  open  to  the  inspection  of  any  persons 
present,  who  may  have  the  euriosity  to  examine  it. 

Q.  Can  you  inform  us,  whether  it  was  one  of  the  objects  in 
building  Trinity  Chapel,  to  increase  the  number  of  the  consti- 
tuency of  Trinity  parish  1  A.  I  think  that  I  can.  In  the  year 
1848,  observing  the  rapid  changes  that  were  going  on  in  the 
lower  part  of  the  city,  and,  that  in  a  very  short  period,  we  had 
lost  by  removal,  more  than  half  of  our  parishioners,  I  drew  up 
a  very  careful  and  elaborate  report  of  the  comparative  state  of 
the  parish,  and  submitted  it  to  the  vestry,  which  impressed 
them  at  the  time,  and  subsequently  led  to  the  building  of  the 
chapel.  As  some  of  the  motives  and  reasons  which  I  presented, 
have  a  bearing  on  the  matter  in  question,  I  beg  leave  to  make 


36 


[Senate 


a  brief  extract  from  the  report  itself.  "  From  1840  to  1848, 
three  hundred  and  thirty-five  families  and  seventy  individuals, 
appear  to  have  left  the  parish.  Of  these,  a  great  part  were 
born  and  brought  up  in  it,  and  completely  identified  with  it, 
anxious  for  its  growth,  jealous  of  its  interests,  accustomed  to  its 
arrangements,  attached  to  its  usages,  friendly  to  its  clergy, 
and  to  each  other,  and  linked  to  it  by  such  sacred  and  en- 
dearing associations,  as  nothing  but  the  force  of  circumstances 
could  have  induced  them  to  sever.  Many  of  them,  also,  from 
their  social  position,  their  professional  standing,  their  educa- 
tion, their  wealth,  and  their  influence,  as  well  as  from  their 
sound  churchmanship,  their  unaffected  piety  and  moral  worth, 
gave  a  greater  degree  of  lustre  and  dignity,  both  in  the  eyes 
of  the  world  and  the  church,  to  the  ancient  and  venerable 
corporation  with  which  they  were  connected.  But  this  was 
not  all.  There  was  then  a  wider  range  than  there  is  now, 
for  the  choice  of  distinguished,  upright,  and  intelligent  vestry- 
men, who  might  be  qualified  to  administer  the  sacred  and  im- 
portant trust  committed  to  their  charge  with  a  becoming  libe- 
rality, and  yet  with  such  wisdom  and  prudence  as  not  to  impair 
in  a  day  what  might  be  useful  to  the  church  for  ages  to  come.'' 
The  purpose,  therefore,  was  perfectly  reasonable  and  natural, 
and  such,  it  would  seem,  as  every  pious  and  judicious  mind 
would  sanction  and  approve ;  to  regain  and  preserve  tried  and 
attached  friends,  to  keep  up  the  standard  of  our  constituency  to 
the  elevation  which  it  had  always  maintained,  and  to  enlarge  the 
means  of  our  usefulness  to  others.  It  was  not  supposed  that  the 
new  chapel  would  be  entirely  filled  with  those  who  were  already 
corporators  as  pew  owners  in  the  other  churches  of  the  parish, 
nor  has  it  turned  out  so,  but  that  there  would  also  be  an  addi- 
tion to  their  number,  at  least  as  communicants,  among  the  new- 
comers. This  is  a  simple  and  unvarnished  statement  of  the  mo- 
tives and  reasons  by  which  the  vestry  were  actuated  in  the  erec- 
tion of  Trinity  chapel. 

Q.  What  can  you  say  on  the  subject  of  the  establishment  of 
free  churches  in  the  city  of  New- York,  and  the  aid  that  Trinity 
church  has  afforded  them  1  A.  The  plan  of  free  churches  in  our 


No.  95.] 


37 


communion  in  this  country,  is  a  very  recent  affair,  and  altogether 
experimental,  and  with  the  excption  of  the  church  of  the  Holy 
Communion,  and  one  or  two  others,  nearly  all  that  has  been 
done  in  their  behalf  in  this  city,  has  been  done  by  Trinity  Church. 

Q.  It  is  stated  that  it  does  not  appear  from  the  report  ot 
Trinity  Church  that  it  has  ever  built  any  free  church  1  Has  it 
done  anything  equivalent  ?  A.  Though  that  may  be  true,  she 
has  nevertheless  done  what  may  be  regarded  as  a  fair  equiva- 
lent. The  grants  of  $14,000,  towards  the  Church  of  the  Nativity, 
seems  to  be  passed  over  slightly,  as  if  it  were  a  trifling  affair.  I 
doubt,  however,  whether  if  it  were  put  up  for  sale  to-morrow, 
it  would  bring  much  more  than  Trinity  has  bestowed  on  it. 

Q.  What  has  Trinity  done  in  regard  to  St.  George's  chapel  in 
Beekman-street  1  A.  Through  her  instrumentality  it  was  res- 
cued from  destruction  when  it  was  about  to  be  razed  to 
the  ground.  The  liberality  and  grace  of  this  transaction, 
however,  seemed  to  have  been  lost  sight  of  in  the  report  of  the 
committee  of  the  Senate,  from  an  error,  as  they  suppose,  in  the 
report  of  the  committee  of  the  vestry. 

Q.  Explain,  if  you  please,  your  meaning  on  this  point  1  A. 
The  vestry  of  St.  George's  wished  a  release  of  the  condition  on 
which  the  grant  of  lands  from  Trinity  church  was  made  to  St. 
George's,  in  order  that,  being  entirely  unfettered,  they  might  be 
sold  to  more  advantage.  This  was,  that  there  should  be  always 
a  good  and  sufficient  Protestant  Episcopal  church  kept  up  in 
Montgomery  ward.  An  arrangement  had,  therefore,  been  made 
between  a  committee  of  the  vestry  of  Trinity  church  and  a 
committee  of  the  vestry  of  St.  George's,  that,  upon  the  release 
of  this  condition,  the  latter  should  deposit  ten  per  cent,  of  the 
purchase  money  arising  out  of  the  sale  of  a  portion  of  their 
lands,  for  the  purpose  ol  carrying  out  this  object,  and  allowing 
St.  George's  chapel  to  be  sold. 

When  the  report  of  this  arrangement  came  in,  I  expressed  my 
great  repugnance  to  it,  as  I  had  worshipped  there  in  my  youth; 
and  in  this  feeling,  I  remember,  Mr.  Verplanck,  Chief  Justice 
Jones  and  Gen.  Dix  entirely  sympathised  with  me.    It  was, 


38 


[Senate 


therefore,  sent  back  to  the  committee  for  reconsideration.  The 
church  was  valued,  by  the  vestry  of  St.  George's,  at  $50,000. 
With  their  consent,  the  vestry  of  Trinity  church  agreed  to  take 
an  abatement  of  $25,000  in  the  price  of  the  chapel ,  in  lieu  of 
the  obligation  into  which  St.  George's  had  just  entered,  and  thus 
the  venerable  edifice  was  saved  from  destruction,  and  the  condi- 
tion of  the  gift  fulfilled.  The  relief  which  was  thus  given  to 
St.  George's  from  the  harrassing  and  expensive  claims  of  pew 
owners  in  the  chapel  in  Beekman-street,  and  owners  of  vaults 
in  the  ground  around  it,  in  case  the  church  had  been  torn  down 
and  the  land  disposed  of  for  more  ordinary  purposes;  and  the 
sum  that  would  have  arisen  out  of  the  reservation  of  ten  per 
cent,  of  the  purchase  money  in  the  sale  of  a  considerable  num- 
ber of  their  most  valuable  lots,  were  regarded,  I  believe,  at  the 
time,  on  both  sides,  as  a  fair  equivalent  for  the  deduction  of 
$25,000  from  the  price  which  was  asked  for  the  chapel.  It  was, 
therefore,  for  a  full  and  valuable  consideration  that  this  deduc- 
tion was  made  of  $25,000,  and  not  merely  for  "  the  worth  of  the 
vote;"  though  this  valuable  consideration  could  not  have  been 
obtained  without  it. 

Q.  Beside  the  payment  of  assessments,  repairs,  alterations  and 
other  expenses,  by  Trinity  Church,  has  anything  else  been  done 
for  St.  George's  in  Beekman  street  1  A.  It  has  relieved  the  con- 
gregation entirely  from  the  support  of  their  minister,  and 
assumed  the  payment  of  the  whole  salary  itself  ;  thus  enabling 
it  to  become  a  free  church,  in  a  part  of  the  city  where  one  was 
much  needed. 

Q.  It  is  stated  that  it  appears  from  the  report  of  the  commit- 
tee of  the  vestry,  while  nineteen  churches  not  free  have  been 
aided  in  their  support,  in  the  city  of  New-York,  within  the  last 
five  years,  no  mention  is  made  of  building,  enlarging  and  en- 
dowing them.  How  is  this]  A.  If  it  be  so  stated,  it  must  have 
been  from  mere  oversight;  as  some  certainly  have  been  aided  in 
that  way. 


tfo.  95.  [ 


39 


Q.  Which  are  they  ?  A.  Going  back  but  a  little  way  beyond 
the  prescribed  limits,  the  following  grants  have  been  made : 


June  12,  1848,  the  Holy  Evangelists,   $6,500  00 

April  12,  1848,  Free  Church  of  the  Epiphany,   6,500  00 

St.  George's  Chapel,  for  assessments,  repairs,  altera- 
tions, cStc,  in  addition  to  the  purchase  money,..      5,660  30 
June  28,  1847,  Church  of  the  Nativity,  towards 

building  the  same,   5,000  00 

November  26,  1849,       "  "    4,000  00 

Grace  Church,  Brooklyn,  towards  the  debt  incurred 
in  its  building,  five  annual  instalments  of  $1,000 

each,   ...      5,000  00 

March  21,  1853,  Church  of  the  Annunciation,   25,000  00 

April  9,  1855,  Church  of  the  Redeemer,  at  York- 

ville,   9,000  00 

January  9, 1854,  St.  Mark's,  Williamsburgh,  ,      6 ,000  00 

And  coming  a  little  this  side  of  the  limit  of  5  years, 

Free  Church  of  the  Holy  Innocents,   5,000  00 

Church  of  St.  John  the  Baptist,   15,000  00 


Making  together,   $92,660  30 


Q.  A  question  is  made  as  to  the  endowment  of  churches  in 


the  city  of  New-Yorn,  by  the  said  corporation,  within  the  last 
five  years.  What  have  you  to  say  about  such  restriction  as  to 
time  ?  A.  Had  the  instructions  of  the  committee  been  a  little 
more  enlarged  as  to  time,  and  a  little  more  comprehensive  in 
their  range,  so  as  to  include  Williamsburgh  and  Brooklyn,  which 
are  almost  virtually  a  part  of  New-York,  it  would  be  seen  from 
the  foregoing  statement  that  there  are  no  less  than  five  free 
churches,  and  five  not  free,  that  have  been  aided  in  the  building, 
enlarging,  or  endowing  of  the  same.  And  that  the  aggregate 
amount  of  these  grants  for  such  purposes  is  $92,660.30. 

Q.  Has  Trinity  done  nothing  more  in  behalf  of  free  churches 
than  you  have  already  stated  ?  A.  She  has  made  annual  allow- 
ances towards  their  support,  to  the  following  churches  :  the 
church  of  the  Nativity,  the  Epiphany,  the  Holy  Evangelists,  the 
Holy  Martyrs,  the  Good  Shepherd,  St.  John  the  Evangelist,  the 


40 


^Senate 


Holy  Innocents,  St.  Simons,  St.  Timothy,  St.  Cornelius,  St.  Bar- 
nabas, and  the  Seamen's  Mission  Churches  of  the  Church  of  the 
Saviour  and  the  Holy  Comforter. 

Q.  What  were  the  amounts  of  these  annual  allowances  1 
A.  They  have  varied  according  to  the  several  necessities  and 
circumstances  of  each  particular  case,  but  range  from  $200  to 
§1,200  per  annum. 

Q.  Could  these  free  churches,  in  your  opinion,  have  been  sus- 
tained without  this  aid  from  Trinity  Church  1  A.  I  think  that 
most  of  them  would  have  languished,  and  been  much  less  effec- 
tive in  their  operations  than  they  now  are;  and  that  the  rest  of 
them,  in  a  short  time,  would  have  absolutely  perished. 

Q.  How  far  may  Trinity  Church  itself  be  regarded  as  a  free 
church  ?  A.  It  is  so  in  a  great  measure  virtually,  though  not  in 
name.  The  parish  church  is  open  to  all  every  morning  and 
evening  each  day  in  the  year,  almost  literally,  without  money 
and  without  price;  and  both  the  temporal  and  spiritual  wants 
of  the  poor  who  frequent  it,  and  who  live  in  its  neighborhood, 
are  attended  to  with  a  watchfulness  and  kindness  which  have 
been  seldom  equalled  among  us,  and  never  surpassed.  The 
same  thing  may  be  said,  in  a  degree,  both  of  St.  Paul's  and  St. 
John's.  And  even  in  Trinity  chapel,  kind  arrangements  have 
been  made  by  free  sittings,  which  enable  the  rich  and  poor  to 
meet  together  without  any  sense  of  humiliation.  In  the  four 
churches  of  the  parish  there  are  in  effect  about  twelve  or  thir- 
teen hundred  free  sittings. 

Q.  But  has  not  the  number  of  these  free  sittings  been  greatly 
multiplied  from  the  mere  force  of  circumstances,  arising  simply 
out  of  the  non-occupation  of  the  pews  by  their  owners  without 
any  action  of  the  vestry  in  the  matter'?  A.  It  was  not  so  in 
regard  to  a  great  number  of  them,  for  it  was  expressly  stipulated 
in  the  renting  of  the  pews  in  Trinity  chapel,  that  those  who 
hired  them  should  be  exempted  from  all  rent  on  their  pews  in 
the  churches  below,  on  the  condition  that  they  should  be  placed 
at  the  disposal  of  the  vestry. 

Q.  And  what  disposition  has  the  vestry  made  of  them  1  A. 
It  has  left  them  entirely  free. 


No.  95.] 


41 


Q.  What  have  you  to  say  in  regard  to  the  sale  of  Zion 
church,  Christ  church  and  St.  Matthews,  without  any  effort  on 
the  part  of  Trinity  Church  to  prevent  it  and  to  convert  them 
into  free  churches  %  A.  From  the  removal  of  so  many  families 
belonging  to  Zion  church,  and  the  consequent  decrease  of  the 
number  of  Episcopalians  in  that  neigborhood,  the  congregation 
was  greatly  reduced.  All  the  efforts  of  the  active,  zealous  and 
indefatigable  rector  seemed  to  be  fruitless,  and  it  was  constantly 
dwindling  away.  Already,  in  grants,  gifts  and  annual  allow- 
ances, had  Trinity  bestowed  on  Zion  $41,770,  a  sum  larger  than 
that  for  which  it  was  actually  sold.  There  must  necessarily  be 
some  limit  to  her  bounty,  and  especially  in  a  case  like  this 
where  a  fresh  outlay,  even  for  a  free  church,  seemed  to  hold  out 
but  little  promise  of  an  adequate  return.  Christ  church  also 
had  received  from  Trinity  the  still  larger  amount  of  $77,450. 
After  these  lavish  gifts  and  grants,  why  should  not  the  corpora- 
tion of  Christ  church  itself  have  turned  it  into  a  free  church, 
and  not  left  the  reproach  of  neglect  to  be  borne  where  it  did  not 
belong  ;  with  respect  to  St.  Matthews,  by  the  admission  of  its 
rector,  it  had  fairly  died  out.  In  this  state  of  things  there  seem- 
ed to  be  but  little  occasion  for  the  interposition  of  Trinity 
Church. 

Q.  The  next  inquiry,  according  to  the  resolution  of  the  Hon- 
orable Senate,  whether  any,  and  if  any,  what  appropriations  have 
been  made  by  them  during  the  last  three  years  to  institutions  of 
charity,  benevolence  or  learning,  in  the  city  of  New- York  ;  to 
this  inquiry  what  answer  have  you  to  make  %  A.  The  simple 
regret  at  the  same  restriction  as  to  place,  the  city  of  New- York; 
and  the  still  narrower  restriction  as  to  time,  than  in  the  enqui- 
ries before  it,  thus  cutting  her  off  in  the  public  mind,  from  the 
grace  and  credit  of  one  of  the  noblest  acts  of  munificence  which 
Trinity  Church,  in  the  vastness  of  her  bounty,  has  ever  done. 

Q.  What  is  that?  A.  The  grant  of  §50,000  to  Geneva  College, 
and  the  arrangement  by  the  church,  to  pay  the  interest  on  that 
sum,  at  six  per  cent,  until  the  principal  should  be  paid  ;  which 
has  enabled  it  to  become  a  Free  College,  the  first  instance  of 
the  kind,  I  believe,  throughout  our  land. 


42 


[Senate 


Q.  Is  there  any  thing  else  since  the  ample  endowment  of  Co- 
lumbia College,  the  Society  for  promoting  religion  and  learning, 
Tiinity  School  and  Hobart  Free  College,  that  Trinity  has  done, 
for  institutions  of  charity,  benevolence,  and  learning?  A.  If 
aid  to  the  board  of  missions,  whose  office  is  established  in  the 
city  of  New-York,  or  to  the  Missionary  Committee  of  this  dio- 
cese, whose  deliberations  are  held  in  the  same,  be  classed  under 
this  head  ;  I  may  then  mention,  that  $5,000  was  granted  to  the 
former,  on  one  occasion,  in  behalf  of  the  African  mission,  and 
$3,000  at  another,  presented  as  an  offering  on  the  altar  to  the 
latter,  for  the  benefit  of  our  diocesan  mission. 

Q.  When  however,  was  this?  A.  In  1851,  unfortunately 
again,  a  little  too  soon,  to  come  within  the  very  narrow  limits 
prescribed  by  the  Senate,  for  so  comprehensive  an  inquiry.  It 
may  here  be  as  well  to  account  for  the  comparative  smallness 
of  her  benefactions  in  these  three  years.  Trinity  Church  was 
at  that  very  time  engaged  in  building  a  large,  substantial  and 
expensive  chapel,  for  reasons  which,  as  I  have  already  stated, 
seemed  to  make  it  essential  to  her  well  being.  But,  notwith- 
standing this  temporary  check  to  the  free  course  of  her  boun- 
ties, the  gifts,  grants  and  loans  of  Trinity  Church,  from  the 
close  of  1847,  to  1855,  amount  to  $331,800.83,  exclusive  of  the 
abatement  of  $25,000,  for  reasons  above  stated,  from  the  price 
of  St.  George's. 

Q.  It  is  stated,  that  Trinity  Church  has  never  at  any  time, 
endowed  any  Institutions  of  charity,  or  benevolence,  even  for 
her  own  poor.  How  is  this  ?  A.  This  appears  to  me,  a  most 
remarkable  statement.  It  has,  liberally  and  amply  endowed 
Trinity  Charity  School,  which  has  been  doinj;  immeasurable 
good  to  her  own  poor,  and  others,  from  generation  to  genera- 
tion, and  which,  from  a  munificent  bequest,  of  which  she  is  just 
about  to  come  in  possession,  promises  to  become  one  of  the  most 
important  institutions  in  the  land.  The  testimony  on  this  point, 
comes  from  a  quarter  where  it  was  but  little  to  have  been  ex- 
pected, and  is  calculated  to  leave  a  false  impression  on  the 
public  mind.  Neither  Trinity  parish,  nor  Trinity  corporation, 
have  been  so  unmindful  of  their  own  poor,  as  the  report  of  the 
committee  would  seem  to  imply.    The  communion  alms,  which, 


No.  95.]  43 

in  other  churches,  are  often  appropriated  to  mere  general  pur- 
poses, are  in  this  parish,  applied  exclusively  to  the  relief  of  the 
temporal  and  spiritual  necessities  of  the  poor.  The  private  con- 
tributions of  individuals,  for  the  same  benevolent  purposes,  in 
connection  with  our  parochial  charities,  the  Dorcas  societies,  the 
Industrial  schools,  and  the  Parish  schools,  bear  some  reasonable 
proportion  to  the  ability  of  our  people.  Besides  these,  there 
are  annual  and  occasional  collections  in  the  Parish,  fnr  St.  Luke's 
Home,  the  Orphan's  Home,  the  House  of  Mercy,  and  for  the  re- 
lief of  human  suffering  and  want,  in  other  forms.  These,  ex- 
clusive of  the  collections  for  the  House  of  Mercy,  which  are  now 
in  progress,  amounting  in  the  last  conventional  year,  to  between  7 
and  $8,000.  In  addition  to  this,  Trinity  Church  corporation, 
makes  an  annual  contribution  of  $2,000  towards  the  Communion 
fund,  to  supply  the  deficiencies  in  the  offerings  of  the  people,  on 
account  of  the  altered  condition  of  things  in  the  parish.  It 
appropriates  nearly  $1,600  a  year,  to  lay  agents,  whose  business 
it  is  to  give  needful  assistance  and  counsel  to  the  emigrant,  on 
his  arrival  at  this  port ;  to  visit  the  suffering  poor,  and  ascertain 
their  fitness  for  the  bounty  of  the  Church,  and  to  search  out  the 
ignorant,  for  religious  instruction .  It  expends  about  $1 000a  year 
on  the  Parish  school  of  St.  Paul's  chapel,  and  it  likewise  em- 
powers the  Rector,  with  unlimited  discretion,  to  give  orders  for 
the  free  burial  of  the  poor,  of  our  own  congregations,  as  well  as 
of  others,  a  privilege,  which  is  very  frequently  sought,  and  in 
almost  all  cases,  cheerfully  granted  alike,  to  all. 

Q.  It  is  said  that  there  is  partizanship  in  the  grants  which 
Trinity  Church  has  made.  Is  there  any  truth  in  this  charge  ? 
A.  As  a  christian  man  and  a  christian  minister,  I  declare  that  I 
have  never  heard  one  which  appears  to  be  more  unfounded  and 
unjust.  I  have  for  twenty-eight  years  as  assistant  rector  and 
rector,  presided  at  the  meetings  of  the  vestry,  and  I  have  never 
heard  a  syllable  from  any  member  of  that  body  in  any  applica- 
tion before  them  which  would  warrant  the  charge  that  it  would 
be  determined  on  partizan  grounds.  What  influence  the  differ- 
ence of  opinion  may  exert  on  individual  minds  it  is  impossible 
to  tell;  but  I  know  very  well  that  the  question  never  comes  up 
nor  is  even  alluded  to  in  the  vestry  itself. 


44 


[Senate 


Q.  How  far  would  this  distinction  of  partiality  in  the  grants 
themselves  be  proved  by  a  reference  to  the  parties  to  whom  they 
were  made?  A.  So  far  as  the  city  of  New-York  is  concerned, 
it  would  be  a  distinction  without  a  difference;  for  with  two 
single  exceptions,  all  the  churches  in  New-York,  amounting  to 
the  number  of  fifty,  have  been  sharers  of  her  bounty.  The  fol- 
lowing list  of  all  the  church  corporations  in  the  city  of  New- 
York,  is  taken  from  the  journals  of  the  convention.  Those  not 
marked  with  a  star  have  been  aided  by  Trinity  Church.  It  will 
be  sure  there  are  but  two  in  the  list  that  have  not  received  aid 
from  Trinity.  The  one  The  Church  of  the  Holy  Communion, 
that  was  built  by  the  relict  of  the  late  John  Rogers,  the  other  is 
the  Church  of  the  Incarnation,  that  occupies  the  building  erect- 
ed by  Grace  Church  for  a  free  church. 

New-York  City  and  County. 

Advent,  All  Angels,  All  Saints,  Annunciation,  Ascension, 
Calvary,  Christ,  Crucifixion,  Emmanuel,  Ephiphany,  Holy  Com- 
forter, Our  Saviour,  Good  Shepherd,  Grace,  Holy  Apostles,  *Holy 
Communion,  Holy  Evangelists,  Holy  Innocents,  Holy  Martyrs, 
*Incarnation,  Intercession,  Messiah,  Nativity,  Redeemer,  Redemp- 
tion, St.  Andrew's,  St  Ann's,  St.  Barnabas,  St.  Bartholomew,  St, 
Clement's,  St.  Cornelius,  St.  Esprit,  St.  George's,  St.  George  the 
Martyr,  St.  James,  St.  John  the  Evangelist,  St.  John  the  Baptist, 
St.  Jude's,  St.  Luke's,  St.  Mark's,  St.  Mary's,  St.  Matthew's,  St. 
Michael's,  St.  Peter's,  St.  Philip's,  St.  Simon's,  St.  Stephen's,  St. 
Thomas,  St.  Timothy's,  Transfiguration. 

Q.  But  may  not  this  aid  have  been  rendered  in  different  de- 
gree ?  A.  It  would  be  exceedingly  difficult  to  made  a  compari- 
son from  actual  facts,  but  I  think  that  I  may  venture  to  say  very 
safely,  that  if  the  aggregate  amount  of  the  favors  and  benefits 
received  from  Trinity  by  those  churches  whose  rectors  and  ves- 
tries are  supposed  not  to  sympathize  with  her  in  her  views,  were 
set  against  the  amount  received  by  those  whose  rectors  and 
vestries  cordially  do,  that  the  groundless  charge  of  undue  par- 
tiality would  be  still  more  apparent.  In  this  comparative  esti- 
mate, however,  must  be  included,  what  the  corporation  has  done 
for  St.  Mark's  church,  Grace  church,  and  St.  George's,  whose 


No.  95  ] 


45 


rectors,  if  we  may  judge  from  their  evidence  in  the  present 
inquiry,  appear  to  have  had  no  great  good  will  towards  Trinity 
Church,  though  with  more  reason  for  kind  feeling  and  grateful 
recollection  than  all  others. 

Q.  Have  you  met  with  any  instances  among  those  called 
"  low  "  churchmen,  who  have  viewed  this  matter  in  a  different 
light  1  A.  I  have  with  one,  which  is  somewhat  striking.  A 
few  years  since,  a  frank  and  high-minded  clergyman,  who 
prides  himself  on  his  low  churchmanship,  but  who  is  as  liberal 
in  his  feelings  towards  the  views  of  others  as  he  is  honest  in  his 
own,  after  having  read  the  history  of  Trinity  Church,  expressed 
to  me  his  amazement  at  the  extent  of  her  bounties.  I  remarked 
to  him,  however,  that  he  would  perceive  they  were  indiscrimi- 
nately distributed,  without  regard  to  difference  of  opinion, 
among  those  who  received  them.  And  what  if  they  had  not 
been,  he  earnestly  replied,  had  not  Trinity  Church  a  perfect 
right  to  do  what  she  pleased  with  her  own,  I  am  sure  I  would 
have  done  so. 

Q.  Hearsay  evidence  has  been  received  to  show  that  a  certain 
application  for  relief  to  the  vestry  of  Trinity  church  had  been 
repelled  by  the  comptroller,  on  the  score  that  the  parish,  in 
whose  behalf  it  was  made,  had  not  voted  in  favor  of  Bishop 
Orderdonk;  what  do  you  say  to  this  ?  A.  If  this  statement  be 
true,  the  subject,  nevertheless,  from  its  peculiar  delicacy,  has 
never  been  touched  on  in  the  vestry  of  Trinity  church,  and  I  am 
very  sure  that  it  was  never  made  the  ground  of  any  action  in 
this  body,  either  in  one  way  or  the  other. 

Q.  It  is  stated  that  the  active  liberality  and  zeal  of  the  parish- 
ioners of  Trinity  have  been  so  far  weakened,  that  their  four 
congregations  united  do  less  than  some  single  independent  con- 
gregations in  the  same  city,  with  little  or  no  endowment.  Is 
this  comparison  well  founded  and  just  ?  A.  Far  from  it,  I  think. 
It  is  well  known  that  from  the  lower  part  of  the  city,  in  which 
Trinity  and  St.  Paul's  are  situated,  and  even  as  high  up  as  St. 
John's,  nearly  all  the  people  of  wealth  and  condition  have  remo- 
ved and  gone  up  town.  Trinity  church,  though  well  attended3 
is  almost  entirely  filled  with  strangers,  and  the  poor,only  a  very 


46 


[Senate 


scanty  remuant  of  the  former  congregation  remaining.  The 
same  may  be  said,  in  a  measure,  of  St.  Paul's,  and  in  some 
degree,  of  St.  John's.  The  united  ability  of  all  three,  for  the 
exercise  of  charity,  I  do  not  believe,  is  equal  to  that  of  the 
congregetion  to  which  reference  is  supposed  to  be  made. 

Q.  What  Episcopal  churches,  besides  Trinity,  St.  Paul's  and 
St.  John's  are  left  in  the  lower  part  of  the  city  ]  A.  None  but 
Du  St.  Esprit  and  St.  George's  chapel,  in  Beekman-street.  St. 
George's  church  has  g  me  up  among  the  rich,  taking  its  ample 
endowment  with  it.  Grace  church,  with  all  its  parish  and  indi- 
vidual wealth,  has  done  the  same;  and  so  likewise  have  Christ 
church  and  the  Ascension ;  leaving  their  deserted  poor  in  the 
lower  part  of  the  city,  almost  entirely  to  the  care  of.  Trinity; 
and  then  she  is  taunted  with  the  scantiness  of  her  collections, 
from  those  who,  for  the  most  part,  have  comparatively  but  little 
to  give. 

Q.  Is  it  true,  as  charged,  that  a  general  torpor  pervades  the 
whole  concern.  A.  If  there  were  even  more  ground  for  the 
charge  than  there  is  in  regard  to  temporal  matters,  it  is  spirit- 
ually full  of  life  and  activity.  Notwithstanding  all  the  re- 
movals and  all  the  changes  which  have  taken  place,  it  has  not 
for  years  been  in  a  more  prosperous  condition.  It  will  appear 
from  the  report  of  the  Rector  made  recently  to  the  Vestry,  that 
in  the  course  of  the  last  conventional  year,  33  adults  and  400 
children  were  baptised  in  the  parish,  that  176  persons  were  con- 
firmed, that  there  are  1,100  communicants,  that  there  were  in 
the  Sunday,  parish  and  industrial  schools,  1,307  scholars  and 
teachers;  and  that,  in  the  same  period,  there  were  about  2,000 
Sunday  and  week-day  services  in  the  parish. 

Q.  But  is  not  this  state  of  things  in  the  parish,  in  some  mea- 
sure, owing  to  the  action  of  the  Senate  ?  A.  Neither  the  fear 
nor  favor  of  man  had  anything  to  do  with  it.  The  motives  to 
this  activity  and  zeal,  I  humbly  trust,  came  from  a  higher 
power.  In  the  fall  of  1855,  a  committee  was  appointed  by  the 
vestry  on  the  state  of  the  parish  to  consider  and  report  thereon, 
and  with  a  more  especial  view  to  its  future  arrangements  on 
the  completion  of  the  new  chapel,  several  meetings  were  held  on 


No.  95.] 


47 


the  subject,  and  all  the  leading  features  of  the  system  were 
marked  out  and  settled,  according  to  my  recollection  and  belief, 
before  the  action  of  the  Senate. 

Q.  It  is  also  stated,  apparently  as  an  instance  of  the  same  torpor, 
that  there  is  so  little  interest  taken  in  the  vestry  elections,  and 
that  in  eight  out  of  the  past  ten  years,  an  average  of  hardly  one 
in  ten  of  the  corporators  cared  to  appear.  Do  you  consider  this 
the  fair  conclusion  1  A.  On  the  contrary,  I  think  it  the  very 
reverse.  It  seems  to  me  a  decisive  proof  of  the  satisfaction  and 
confidence  of  the  corporators,  in  the  general  administration  of 
the  affairs  of  the  parish.  Did  a  different  sentiment  prevail, 
whatever  their  sluggishness,  it  would  soon  draw  them  out  as  all 
experience  shows. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  Trinity  Church  has  done  its  utmost  to 
make  the  capital  of  the  property  of  that  corporation  available, 
for  the  founding,  or  support,  or  promotion  of  religious,  chari- 
table or  educational  institutions  or  purposes  ?  A.  Making  due 
allowance  for  unavoidable  diversities  of  opinion  and  the  fallibility 
of  human  judgment,  and  looking  beyond  the  mere  present  mo- 
ment to  perpetuity  in  the  future,  I  think  that  it  has.  I  have 
never  known  any  body  of  men  act  more  thoughtfully,  more  up- 
rightly and  conscientiously,  than  the  vestry  of  Trinity  Church  in 
the  administration  of  its  affairs,  nor  any  which,  in  its  general 
character,  surpassed  it  in  wisdom  and  intelligence. 


Wednesday,  Afternoon,  Feb.  lQth. 
Present — Senate   committee,   Messrs.  Spencer,  Noxon  and 
Ramsey.  Counsel  for  Trinity,  Judge  Parker  and  0.  Meads,  Esq. 

Rev.  John  Henry  Hobart  recalled  and  cross-examined  by  coun- 
sel for  Trinity  church — Q.  So  far  as  your  knowledge  extends, 
what,  during  the  time  of  your  connection  with  the  parish,  have 
been  the  policy,  desire  and  action  of  Trinity  church  in  relation 
to  making  the  property  of  that  corporation  available  for  the 
founding,  support  or  promotion  of  religious,  charitable  or  edu- 
cational institutions  or  purposes  1    A.I  believe,  so  far  as  I  have 


48 


[ Senate 


knowledge,  that  the  vestry  have  acted  in  good  faith,  to  the  best 
of  their  judgment,  in  order  to  make  their  property  available  for 
the  purposes  named  in  the  question. 

lit.  Rev.  Bishop  Potter,  recalled  by  counsel  for  Trinity — 
Q.  Have,  or  have  not  the  grants  of  Trinity  church  made  to  other 
churches,  in  the  form  of  grants  of  money,  secured  by  mortgages 
or  otherwise,  or  in  the  form  of  annual  stipends,  had  the  effect  to 
promote  dependency,  feebleness  and  deadness  in  the  parishes  thus 
aided,  or  what  has  been  the  effect  of  such  grants  in  each  of  those 
forms  of  grants  upon  the  internal  condition  of  the  parishes  aided] 
A.  I  do  not  see  why  the  assistance  spoken  of  in  the  question  should 
be  injurious  to  the  parishes  in  the  respect  mentioned  in  the  ques- 
tion; nor  do  I  believe  that  it  has  been;  but  on  the  contrary,  benefi- 
cial. It  has  encouraged  parishes  to  exertion  in  many  instances, 
when  otherwise  they  would  have  been  unable  to  maintain  them- 
selves. The  feeling  often  has  been,  I  think,  that  the  parishes,  after 
receiving  such  aid,  have  laid  themselves  under  special  obligations 
to  exert  themselves.  If  it  was  an  absolute  grant,  with  a  mortgage, 
it  did  not  differ  essentially  from  any  other  gilt,  except  that  the  ob- 
ligation spoken  of  was  increased.  If  it  was  an  annual  stipend,  it 
was  like  the  stipend  granted  by  the  missionary  committee  of  the 
diocese,  and  those  annual  stipends  have  been  provided  for  by  the 
collective  wisdom  of  the  church  in  the  diocese,  as  a  part  of  her  or- 
ganised system.  It  must  imply  an  opinion,on  the  part  of  the  whole 
church  in  the  diocese,  that  that  mode  of  rendering  assistance  is 
a  useful  mode.  I  have  known  many  cases  where  the  question  of 
a  church  being  able  to  sustain  itself  in  a  given  community,  or 
being  able  to  maintain  itself,  seemed  to  depend  upon  the  assist- 
ance it  received  from  Trinity  church. 

Q.  Will  you  explain  more  fully,  your  meaning  in  regard  to 
the  nature  of  your  supervision  over  the  affairs  of  Trinity  Church? 
A.  It  is  with  the  affairs  of  Trinity  Church;  as  with  those  of 
every  other  parish  in  the  diocese.  The  Rector,  Wardens,  and 
Vestrymen,  are  an  integral  portion  of  the  church  of  which  I 
am  an  overseer,  and  I  cannot  conceive,  that  in  any  part  of  their 
official  conduct,  they  are  exempt  from  a  certain  general  re- 
sponsibility to  me,  nor  is  the  idea  of  such  responsibility  des- 


No.  95.1 


49 


troyed  by  the  fact,  that  I  do  not  supervise  their  appropriations, 
that  my  assent  is  not  necessary  to  the  validity  of  their  grants, 
and  that  they  make  no  report  of  their  grants  to  me.  Since  I 
have  been  in  office,  a  majority  of  the  vestrymen  of  a  parish, 
(  not  Trinity  Church),  laid  before  me,  charges  against  their 
Rector,  of  misconduct,  in  regard  to  the  funds  of  the  parish.  I 
ordered  a  committee  of  inquiry.  Had  that  committee  found  the 
charges  warranted,  in  appearance,  by  the  facts,  the  Rector  would 
have  been  put  upon  his  trial ;  but  they  were  found  to  be  ground- 
less. The  transactions  of  the  parish,  out  of  which  this  diffi- 
culty arose,  were  not  of  a  nature  to  be  included  in  the  usual 
reports  to  me,  nevertheless,  the  case  shows  that  there  was  a  re- 
sponsibility to  the  head  of  the  diocese,  which  extended  to  all 
those  unreported  transactions.  Again,  during  the  Episcopate  of 
my  immediate  predecessor,  there  was  a  case,  in  which  a  Rector 
charged  his  Vestry  with  misconduct  in  the  management  of  the 
funds  of  the  parish.  The  Bishop  ordered  a  committee  of  in- 
quiry ;  I  was  the  chairman  of  the  committee.  Witnesses  came 
before  us,  the  conduct  of  the  Vestry  was  inquired  into,  and  a 
report  made  to  the  Bishop,  that  the  allegations  of  the  Rector, 
were  unsupported  by  the  facts.  In  this  case  also,  the  transac- 
tions in  question,  were  not  of  that  class,  which  are  ever  included 
in  the  parochial  reports  to  the  Bishop.  Nevertheless,  they  were 
so  far  under  his  general  supervision,  that  there  was  room  for  his 
interposition,  if  a  special  difficulty  should  require  it.  Let  me 
further  illustrate  \  I  am  to  oversee  the  conduct  of  the  clergy. 
It  is  the  duty  of  a  clergyman  to  visit  his  flock,  but  he  does  not 
report  to  me  the  number,  or  frequency  of  his  visits,  and  no 
doubt  there  might  be  some  degree  of  neglect,  without  my  know- 
ledge, or  without  my  considering  it  a  case  for  special  interfe- 
rence. So,  any  parish  may  commit  many  errors  in  church  build- 
ing, and  in  the  management  of  its  funds,  without  my  know- 
ledge, and  without  my  thinking  it  a  case  for  interference,  even 
if  I  was  aware  of  it.  But  this  does  not  at  all  destroy  the  idea, 
so  familiar  to  the  mind  of  every  churchman,  the  idea  I  had  in 
my  mind,  in  my  former  testimony,  that  the  Rector,  Wardens, 
and  Vestrymen  of  a  parish,  cannot  act  in  any  official  way,  in 
any  matter  pertaining  to  church  property,  and  the  interests  of 
[Senate,  No.  95.J  4 


50 


[Senate 


the  church,  without  a  certain  general  responsibility  to  the  head 
of  the  diocese  ;  and,  as  in  the  cases  I  have  just  cited,  that  re- 
sponsibility, is  not  a  mere  theoiy,  but  a  practicable  reality. 

By  the  Senate  committee  : 

Q.  I  should  understand,  sir,  your  first  answer  to  imply,  that 
you  think  it  an  advantage  to  a  church  to  have  its  property 
under  mortgage,  do  you  so  intend  the  reply  ?  A.  As  I  have  be- 
fore stated  in  my  testimony,  I  consider  the  mortgage  a  nullity, 
except  for  the  purpose  of  preventing  the  sale  of  the  church 
property  and  its  alienation  from  its  sacred  use  ;  and,  therefore,  I 
consider  it  no  disadvantage,  and  if  I  had  a  positive  opinion  to 
give  I  should  incline  to  give  the  opinion  that  it  was  an  advan- 
tage. I  take  it  for  granted  that  that  opinion  cannot  be  construed 
to  be  an  opinion  in  favor  of  an  incumbrance  by  mortgate  in  the 
abstract. 

Q.  Are  you  aware  that  under  such  mortgages  interest  ac- 
cumulates, and  that  it  is  in  the  power  of  the  holders  to  collect 
them  1   A.I  am. 

Q.  Do  you  by  your  answer  in  explanation,  mean  to  be  under, 
stood  that  you  have  any  charge,  direction  or  control,  in  any 
way  or  manner,  over  the  funds  administed  by  the  corporation 
Trinity  Church  ?    A.  I  have  already  stated  in  a  previous  an. 
swer  that  I  have  no  immediate  oversight. 

Q.  Have  you  any  remote  oversight  ?  A.  My  assent,  I  have 
already  stated,  is  not  essential  to  the  validity  of  a  grant ;  I  am 
not  generally  cognizant  of  the  internal  or  financial  affairs  of  that 
or  any  other  parish,  but  I  must  think,  as  is  implied  in  my  former 
answer,  that  all  the  official  conduct  of  vestries  is,  in  a  genera] 
ecclesiastical  sense,  which  I  have  partly  explained  in  a  former 
answer,  subject  to  the  jurisdiction  of  the  head  of  the  diocese. 

Q.  Do  you  regard  the  funds  controled  by  this  corporation  in 
the  same  light  you  do  the  financial  affairs  of  other  church  cor- 
porations, not  having  large  estates.  A.  In  one  respect  I  do. 
They  are  just  as  much  the  exclusive  property  of  that  corporation 
as  the  property  of  any  other  church  is.    The  magnitude  of  the 


No.  95.] 


51 


property  places  it  in  certain  general  moral  relations  to  the 
diocese  at  large,  which  have  been  very  largely  recognized  by 
the  parish. 

Q.  Do  you  regard  your  control  over  this  corporation  and  all 
others  in  this  diocese  alike  ?  A.  It  has  never  occurred  to  me 
that  there  was  any  difference. 

Q.  For  a  misapplication  or  mal-administration  of  her  fund? 
what  discipline  would  you  inflict  ?  A.  I  have  already  stated 
that  in  the  case  of  every  parish  there  may  be  many  errors,  many 
omissions  of  duties,  which  would  not  call  for  any  interposition. 
What  action  I  might  be  induced  to  take  under  particularly  extreme 
circumstances,  I  certainly  cannot  foresee. 

Q.  I  do  not  ask  you  what  action  you  might  take.  I  ask  you 
what  power  you  have,  by  virtue  of  your  office  as  bishop  ?  A.I 
have  the  power  by  canon  of  looking  into  the  affairs  of  the  par- 
ishes I  visit.  I  have  the  power,  by  virtue  of  my  office,  of  advice 
and  admonition.  If  there  be  gross  misconduct  in  the  parish  it 
must  be  either  with  or  without  the  connivance  of  the  rector.  It 
is  not  easy  to  be  without.  If  it  amounts  to  crime  or  immorality 
it  of  course  exposes  the  rector  to  be  dealt  with  as  in  the  case  I 
have  mentioned  in  a  former  answer. 

Q.  Is  not  all  your  power  of  a  spiritual  and  ecclesiastical 
nature  1    A.  Yes  sir. 

Examination  by  counsel  for  Trinity.  Rev.  William  Berrian 
re-called  : 

Q.  Can  you  tell  what  gifts  Trinity  Church  has  made  for  the 
founding  or  support  or  promotion  of  religious,  charitable  or  edu- 
cational institutions  or  purposes,  and  what  is  the  amount  of  such 
gifts  made  prior  to  the  25th  of  January,  1814,  and  what  subse- 
quent to  that  date  1  A.  The  following  grants  of  land  were  made 
by  Trinity  Church,  prior  to  1814  : 

1786,  3  lots  to  the  senior  pastors  of  the  Presbyterian  congrega 

tions  in  this  city. 
1765,  2  lots  to  the  corporation  for  the  ferry  between  this  city 

and  Pawles  Hook. 

1775,  2  lots  to  the  same  for  a  pier  and  slip  on  the  north  side  of 
Vesey-street. 


52 


[Senate 


1800,  for  a  market  in  Duane  street;  and  for  another  in  Christo- 
pher-street. 

1810,  2  lots  for  a  free  school  in  Hudson-street. 

1752,  grants  of  land,  between  Murray  and  Barclay-streets  and 
extending  from  Church-street  to  the  river,  to  Columbia 
college. 

1748,  Grants  for  the  site  of  Trinity  Charity  school. 
1800,  7  lots  to  the  same. 

1802,  32  lots  to  the  Society  for  the  Promotion  of  Religion  and 

Learning. 
1795,  28  lots  to  St.  Mark's  church. 

1811,  25  lots  to  Grace  church. 

1812,  33  lots  to  St.  George's. 

1795,  5  lots  to  St.  Peter's,  Westchester. 

1807,  3  lots  to  St.  Stephen's. 

1807,  6  lots  to  St.  Michael's  and  St.  James'. 

1813,  4  lots  to  St.  James'. 
1805,  4  lots  to  Christ  church. 

108  lots  from  1795  to  1805  inclusive. 
1809,  3  lots  to  St.  George's,  Flushing;  3  to  Grace  church, 
Jamaica;  3  to  St.  James',  Newtown;  2  to  St.  Ann's,  Brook- 
lyn; 3  to  Trinity,  Utica. 
Grants  in  money  and  a  bond  during  the  same 

period,   $238,220  22| 

1,500  00 

$239,720  22| 

The  following  are  the  grants  in  land  by  Trinity  Church,  from 
1814  to  August,  1855  : 

1815,  a  grant  of  land  to  the  Free  School  Society. 
1820,  3  lots  to  St.  Luke's. 

1827. 2  do 

1834. 3  do 

1835,  1  lot  to  the  Ascension. 

1832,  5  lots  to  Trinity  school  at  a  mere  nominal  rent. 

In  money  during  the  same  period,   $998,703  60 

There  may  be  some  discrepancy,  but  if  so  my  statement  under 
rates. 


No.  95.]  53 

Q.  How  did  you  acquire  the  knowledge  necessary  to  enable 
you  to  make  the  statement  contained  in  your  last  answer  1 
A.  From  a  careful  examination  of  the  minutes  of  the  vestry 
from  1697  to  1855.  When  I  was  in  doubt  I  usually  consulted 
the  officers  of  the  corporation,  the  comptroller  and  clerk,  to 
clear  it  up,  if  they  knew  anything  about  it. 

Q.  Is  the  statement  correct  that  in  addition  to  the  require- 
ments of  the  law,  the  church  required  that  all  persons  desiring 
to  vote  should  give  previous  notice  of  such  desire  to  the  rector  ? 
A.  I  don't  know  of  any  such  requisition. 

Q.  Were  there  any,  and  if  any,  what  Episcopal  church  corpo- 
rations in  the  city  of  New- York,  prior  to  1814,  besides  the  cor- 
poration of  Trinity  Church  1  A.  There  were  nine,  to  wit :  St. 
Marks,  Christs,  Grace,  St.  George's,  Du  St.  Esprit,  St.  Stephens, 
Zion,  St.  Michaels,  and  St.  James. 

Q.  Did  the  members  of  either  of  these  corporations,  independ- 
ent of  Trinity  Church,  ever  claim  or  exercise  the  right  of  voting 
as  corporators  of  Trinity  Church,  before  the  act  of  1814?  A.  I 
never  heard  of  the  exercise;  but  I  think  I  have  heard  of  the 
claim.  I  never  heard  of  the  claim  being  made  but  once  prior 
to  1814. 

Q.  Was  it  granted  at  that  time  1  A.  I  do  not  think  it  was. 
I  never  heard  that  it  was. 

Q.  Was  such  a  right  ever  claimed  or  exercised  since  1814  ? 
A.  I  never  knew  it  to  be  claimed  but  on  one  occasion,  that  was 
during  my  rectorship,  when  I  was  presiding.  It  was  not  exer- 
cised. It  was  accompanied  by  a  threat  that  it  would  be  exer- 
cised, but  it  was  never  carried  out.  I  think  it  was  between  ten 
and  fifteen  years  ago.  It  was  by  Mr.  Walter  M.  Rutherford. 
Such  a  right  has  never  been  exercised. 

Q.  Is  the  Rev.  Robert  S.  Howland  generally  deemed  a  "  high  » 
churchman,  or  a  "  low"  churchman'?  A.  He  has  always  been 
reputed  a  "  high  "  churchman. 

Q.  Did  the  vestry  in  1813,  to  calm  the  fears  of  the  Legislature, 
promise  that  their  funds  should  be  applied  to  the  building  of 


54 


[Senate 


churches  from  time  to  time  as  the  increase  of  population  de- 
manded, the  control  of  said  churches  to  be  relinquished  to 
independent  vestries,  &c,  and  suitable  endowments  to  be  made? 
A.  I  never  heard  that  they  made  such  a  promise,  nor  knew  any 
thing  about  it  until  I  read  it  in  the  report  of  this  committee. 

By  the  Senate  committee  : 

Q.  You  stated  yesterday  that  a  large  sum  had  been  given  to 
the  church  of  the  Nativity,  I  would  inquire  whether  a  mortgage 
was  taken  for  it  1  A.  I  presume  that  it  was,  but  perhaps  not 
for  the  whole  amount.  There  were  two  sums  of  $5,000  at  one  time 
and  $4,000  at  another,  I  presume  that  the  mortgages  were  given 
for  those  two  sums. 

Q.  You  stated  yesterday  that  the  vestry  had  a  meeting,  dis- 
cussed the  subject  and  agreed  to  allow  certain  ministers  to 
examine  the  list  of  corporators ;  was  that  the  first  permission  of 
that  kind  that  had  been  given  ?  A.  It  was  the  first  request  that 
had  ever  been  made  to  me,  that  I  remember  ;  my  answer  was 
that  there  was  no  doubt  of  the  right  of  the  corporators  to  examine 
the  list,  but  to  take  a  copy  of  it,  it  was  not  my  province  to  deter- 
mine; I  brought  the  question  before  the  vestry  as  to  the  right  to 
take  a  copy  ;  the  vestry  resolved  that  the  bishop  might  make 
such  extracts,  or  take  a  copy  of  the  whole  of  it  if  he  desired.  A 
copy  was  taken  by  the  rector  of  St.  Paul's  and  sent  to  the  bishop. 

Q.  Did  not  St.  George's  and  some  other  churches  named  by 
you,  relinquish  all  right  to  the  property  of  Trinity  Church  and 
all  right  to  interfere  in  its  affairs  1  A.I  have  always  under- 
stood that  they  had. 

Q.  Did  those  churches  offer  to  vote  after  that?  A.  Never, 
that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Did  not  Col.  Troop  represent  Trinity  Church  in  1813,  '145 
at  Albany  1  A.  He  was  a  member  of  a  committee  of  seven  on 
the  state  of  the  church,  and  with  full  power  to  make  application 
to  the  Legislature  ;  the  other  members  were  Richard  Harrison, 
David  M.  Clarkson,  Thomas  Barrow,  Robert  Troop,  Jacob 
Le  Roy,  Peter  Augustus  Jay,  and  Thomas  L.  Ogden. 


No.  95.J 


55 


Q.  Is  there  not  a  great  want  of  Episcopal  churches  in  some 
parts  of  the  city  of  New- York  ?  A.  I  would  say  there  is  a  want; 
I  cannot  say  a  great  want,  in  the  eastern  part  of  the  city,  par- 
ticularly. 

Q.  Did  Trinity  Church  ever  build  a  free  church  ?  A.  She 
has  in  effect;  she  has  not  in  fact.  She  has  given  as  much 
as  would  pay  for  the  church. 

Q.  What  was  the  cost  of  Trinity  Church  1  A.  I  think  it  was 
about  $350,000;  the  chapel  cost  $227,000. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  Episcopal  church  in  the  city  has  kept 
pace  with  the  increase  of  the  population  of  the  city  ?  A.I  have 
always  considered  it  has. 

Q.  Was  it  not  considered  important  by  the  clergy  of  the  city 
and  particularly  by  Bishop  Wainright,  to  keep  up  Zion  Church 
at  the  time  it  was  sold  ?  A.  I  know  it  was  by  him;  but  I  know 
nothing  of  the  opinions  of  others. 

Q.  Did  Bishop  Onderdonk  ever  exercise  or  attempt  to  exer- 
cise any  power  over  the  vestry  of  Trinity  Church,  as  a  vestry  % 
A.  Not  that  I  remember.    I  think  I  can  say  he  did  not. 

Q.  Are  the  recommendations  of  the  standing  committee 
always  reported  to  the  vestry  ]    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  the  recommendations  of  the  stand- 
ing committee  being  overruled  by  the  vestry?  A.  Scores  of 
times. 

Q.  You  speak  of  a  resolution  having  passed  the  vestry,  in 
relation  to  allowing  Bishop  Wainright  to  take  a  copy  of  a  list 
of  corporators.  What  called  for  this  action  on  the  part  of  the 
vestry  1  A.  The  reason  was  the  bishop  wrote  to  me  requesting 
the  list  from  me.  I  replied  that  I  had  no  power  myself  to  lend 
the  book,  though  he  had  the  right  to  examine  it. 

Q.  When  was  it  1  A.I  think  it  was  in  1853,  shortly  after  he 
became  bishop. 

Q.  Had  he  applied  for  it  previously  without  success  ?  A.  I 
understood  that  he  applied  to  a  clerk  in  the  vestry  office,  who 
declined  as  I  did,  because  he  had  not  the  power  to  do  it. 


56 


[ Senate 


Q.  Did  he  ask  to  see  it?  A.  I  do  not  know;  I  presume  he 
did.    I  think  he  asked  me  to  see  it. 

Q.  Did  you  show  it  to  him  ?    A.  I  think  not. 

Q.  Why  not  j  A.  I  have  not  the  custody  of  the  book.  It  is 
not  in  my  office  or  custody. 

Q.  Who  had  it?    A.  At  that  particular  time  it  was  with  me. 

Q.  Why  did  you  not  show  it  to  him  ?  A.  I  had  it  for  the 
purpose  of  entering  the  names  of  new  communicants,  and  the 
changes  by  death  and  removal. 

Q.  Did  that  prevent  your  showing  it  to  him  ?  A.  I  had  no 
control  in  the  matter.  I  looked  upon  the  book  as  belonging  to 
the  comptroller  and  not  to  me. 

Q.  What  are  your  powers,  if  any,  over  the  books  of  the  cor- 
poration !  A.  I  have  the  sole  custody  of  the  parish  register, 
containing  the  records  of  baptisms,  marriages  and  burials;  and 
those  are  the  only  books  over  which  I  have  any  control,  though 
they  are  all  open  to  my  examination. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  anything  in  the  act  of  incorporation,  or 
rules  of  the  vestry,  to  prevent  your  showing  the  book  to  any 
person  who  applies  to  see  it?    A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Then,  I  again  ask,  why  you  did  not  show  it  to  him  ?  A. 
Because  I  thought  it  was  the  proper  business  of  the  comptroller 
to  let  him  see  it. 

Q.  Why  .any  more  proper  for  the  comptroller  than  the  rector? 
A.  Because  the  book  is  one  that  was  under  his  custody.  I  have 
no  other  answer  to  give. 

Q.  Was  it  placed  there  by  law,  or  by  action  of  the  vestry  ? 
A.  By  usage,  and  the  necessity  of  the  case. 

Q.  What  churches  were  enlarged  or  endowed  in  the  city  of 
New- York, for  the  three  years  prior  to  April  13,  1855  ?  A.  Two; 
the  church  of  the  Annunciation,  §25,000,  and  church  of  the 
Redeemer,  at  Yorkville,  $9,000. 


No.  95.]  57 

Q.  At  the  time  St.  Matthew's  made  application  to  Trinity  for 
aid,  was  it  admitted  by  its  rector  that  it  had  fairly  "  died  out  V* 
A.  I  understood  it  had,  from  the  testimony. 

Q.  Can  you  state  when  the  application,  in  schedule  G,  was 
made  to  Trinity  ?  A.  I  do  not  remember  exactly  the  date  of  it ; 
less  than  two  years  ago. 

Q.  Had  it  "died  out"  then  ?    A.  I  believe  it  had. 

Q.  Do  they  not  state  In  the  application,  that  unless  you  gave 
them  aid,  they  will  cease  to  exist  in  May  following  1  A.  It 
appears  to  be  so. 

Q.  Did  you  then  understand,  when  you  received  it,  that  it  was 
already  dead  1  A.  I  understood  that  it  was  in  a  low  condition. 
I  knew  it  to  be  so  for  a  long  time  before. 

Q.  Was  her  debt,  as  represented  to  you  in  that  memorial,  more 
than  §4,800 — §3,500  of  which  was  on  the  parsonage  ?  A.  It  is 
represented  in  the  application  at  §4,800. 

Q.  Was  the  parsonage  of  that  church  separate  from  the  church] 
A.  It  was  on  ground  that  belonged  to  the  church,  and  not 
adjoining  it. 

Q.  Why  do  you  say  the  church  was  in  a  low  condition',  with 
only  a  debt  of  §1,300 1  A.  My  impressions  of  its  being  so 
were  made  from  conversations  with  Mr.  Pound,  the  rector,  that 
it  was  in  a  very  languishing  condition. 

Q.  Have  you  stated  the  true  and  only  reason  for  not  giving 
her  aid  %  A.  I  don't  know  of  any  other,  I  am  not  aware  of 
any  other. 

Q.  Was  not  one  reason  for  refusing  the  aid  that  the  request 
was  disrespectful  in  its  language  1    A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  What  was  the  church  edifice  and  lot  worth,  in  your  judg- 
ment?   A.  I  suppose  §15,000,  perhaps  a  little  more. 

Q.  Why  did  you  not  rescue  her  from  her  embarrassment  1 
A.  Because  it  was  not  thought  worth  the  expenditure.  It  was 
surrounded  with  other  churches. 


58 


[Senate 


Q.  Do  you  regard  Trinity  Charity  school  as  an  institution  of 
charity  or  benevolence,  within  the  meaning  of  the  resolution 
propounded  by  the  Senate  1 — (Resolution  was  read.)  A.  I  do, 
in  an  eminent  degree;  I  will  state  the  reason  why.  First,  the 
education  of  our  own  ignorant  poor  children;  in  the  next  place, 
for  a  long  course  of  years  they  weie  aided  in  their  clothing  as 
well  as  education,  and  there  are  now  50  to  70  beneficiaries  who, 
in  addition  to  their  instruction,  receive  stipends  from  $20  to  $50 
per  year,  to  help  them  in  their  clothing,  &c;  it  is  a  day  school. 

Q.  What  are  the  Dorcas  societies  ?  A.  Societies  for  making 
garments  for  the  poor.  I  regard  these  as  benevolent  societies; 
these  societies  are  not  aided  by  the  funds  of  Trinity  corporation. 
Industrial  schools  are  those  in  which  the  poor,  especially  girls, 
are  taught  by  the  ladies,  sewing,  and  where  the  garments  are 
given  away  to  the  poor.  They  are  not  endowed  by  Trinity;  one 
of  the  parish  schools  is  endowed  by  Trinity,  the  others  are  sup- 
ported by  private  contributions  of  the  parishioners. 

Q.  Which  do  you  allude  to,  as  being  spiritually  full  of  life 
and  activity,  Trinity  Parish,  or  the  Rector,  Wardens  and  Vestry- 
men, in  the  administration  of  her  fund  ?  A.  I  mean  that  there 
is  great  activity  and  zeal  on  the  part  of  the  clergy  of  the  parish, 
and  of*  the  congregations  who  unite  in  these  efforts,  and  that 
the  rector,  the  wardens,  and  vestrymen,  heartily  sympathize  with 
them,  and  aid  them,  in  the  prosecution  of  this  work. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  the  nine  Episcopal  churches  which  ex- 
isted prior  to  1814,  did  not  vote  for  vestrymen  in  Trinity  parish? 
A.  I  was  very  intimate  with  Bishop  Hobart,  from  1805.  He  was 
very  communicative  to  me,  though  a  young  man,  and  I  have  no 
recollection  of  ever  having  heard  him  say,  that  there  was  any 
exercise  of  such  privilege. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  him  say,  they  did  not  1  A.  No  ;  I  have 
been  in  the  parish  since  the  latter  part  of  1811,  and  certainly 
should  have  known  of  it,  had  it  ever  been  exercised. 

Q.  What  was  your  position  from  1811  to  1814,  in  the  Church? 
A.  An  assistant  minister  of  Trinity  Church. 


No.  95.]  59 

Q.  Do  the  records  of  the  church,  show  who  voted  in  1813? 
A.  The  clerk  always  takes  down  the  names  of  the  voters  at  the 
elections,  with  the  several  churches  of  the  parish  to  which  the 
voters  belong. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  examined  the  record,  with  the  view  to  find 
out,  whether  the  nine  churches  did  then  actually  vote  ?  A.  I 
have  not. 

Q.  Are  the  lists  of  persons  voting  at  last  election,  preserved 
in  Trinity  Church?  A.  I  preserve  my  own  very  carefully,  I 
do  not  know  whether  the  clerk  does. 

Q.  If  any  such  lists  are  to  be  found,  would  they  not  show 
whether  any  of  the  persons  belonging  to  the  nine  churches, 
voted?    A.  If  in  existence,  I  suppose  they  would. 

Q.  What  are  the  salaries  of  each,  and  all  the  officers  connec- 
ted with  Trinity  Church  ?  A.  The  rector  receives  a  salary  of 
$3,500  per  annum,  and  a  house  with  a  stable  ;  the  five  assistant 
ministers  get  $3000  per  annum,  and  an  allowance  of  $1,100  for 
house  rent;  three  other  assistant  ministers  receive  $1500  per 
annum,  and  no  house  ;  the  comptroller  receives  $3,500  ;  the 
clerk  of  the  vestry  $1,000  per  annum  ;  the  collector  $1,200  per 
per  annum,  clerk  in  the  office  $1200. 

Q.  Is  an  allowance  of  $1,100  to  all  assistant  ministers,  for 
rent,  sufficient  ?    A.  With  moderate  views,  it  is. 

Q.  Is  the  answer  given  on  page  seventeen  of  the  report  of 
Trinity  church,  the  correct  one  ?  A.  I  presume  it  is  correct. 
It  reads : 

Grants  and  Burial  Places  in  Trinity  Cemetery, 

To  the  Orphan  Asylum,  a  plot  containing  621  square  feet. 
To  the  society  for  the  relief  of  aged  and  indigent  females,  a  plot 
containing  300  square  feet.  To  the  Protestant  Episcopal  Mutual 
Benefit  Society,  a  plot  containing  600  square  feet.  To  Christ 
church,  a  plot  to  be  selected.  To  the  Orphan's  Home,  a  plot  to 
be  selected. 

By  counsel  for  Trininty — Q.  How  do  these  salaries,  paid  to 
the  clergy  of  Trinity  parish,  compare  with  salaries  paid  to  other 


60 


[Senate 


clergy  in  the  city  of  New- York  ?  A.  They  are  considerably 
less;  Dr.  Tyng's  salary  amounts,  I  am  told, to  about  $6,000;  Dr. 
Hawk's,  about  $5,000  or  $6,000;  the  rector  of  St.  Thomas 
receives  $5,200. 

By  the  Senate  committee — Q.  Do  you  understand  the  act  of 
1814  to  restrict  the  number  of  persons  qualified  to  vote  for 
church  wardens  or  vestrymen  of  Trinity  church,  who  had  the 
right  to  vote  before  that  time  ]  A.  I  do  not  suppose  that  it  was 
intended  to  restrict  any  any  who  had  a  right;  but  let  me  add, 
that  I  do  not  think  any  had  the  right  before,  who  did  not  belong 
to  the  parish  of  Trinity  church. 

Examination  by  counsel  for  Trinity. — Rev.  Francis  Vinton 
called  and  sworn — Q.  What  means  have  you  of  being  acquainted 
with  the  affairs,  of  Trinity  church?  A.  I  am  an  assistant  min- 
ister there,  and  have  been  so  since  June  1855. 

Q.  What  number  of  ministers  are  there  in  Trinity  parish,  and 
how  are  they  employed,  and  what  are  the  character  and  num- 
ber of  the  congregations  which  attend  the  several  churches  in 
that  parish  1  A.  There  are  nine  ministers,  the  rector  and  eight 
assistants.  Two  are  employed  at  the  church,  and  two  in  each  of 
the  chapels;  the  rector  having  general  supervision.  At  St.  Paul's 
chapel,  the  only  one  I  speak  of,  the  congregation  is  composed  of 
three  classes:  first,  the  old  families  retaining  their  seats;  second, 
strangers  Irom  the  hotels,  clerks  and  sojourners  of  the  city, 
engaged,  for  the  most  part,  in  mercantile  business;  third,  me- 
chanics, artisans,  porters,  washer-women,  hucksters,  and  mis- 
cellaneous poor,  who  obtain  their  living  by  daily  labor. 

Q.  Will  you  be  good  enough  to  explain  the  arrangements  ior 
parochial  work  at  St.  Paul's  chapel,  and  as  to  the  work  of  that 
kind  actually  done  by  the  minister  and  others  there  employ- 
ed 1  A.  There  is  a  parish  school  employing  two  teachers 
with  voluntary  assistance  from  the  women  of  the  parish,  to  teach 
poor  children  the  principles  of  religion,  as  professed  by  the 
Episcopal  church,  the  elements  of  common  learning;  sewing  to 
the  extent  of  each  making  their  own  clothing,  and  as  laboring  to 
get  their  own  living,  and  also  instructions  in  church  music. 


No.  95.] 


61 


The  number  of  children  is  80  or  100  ;  also  a  Sunday  school  in- 
cluding other  children  of  the  parish,  taught  by  between  twenty 
and  thirty  teachers  of  both  sexes  ;  two  classes  for  advanced 
scholars,  also  a  weekly  Bible  class  for  clerks  and  young  men. 
The  public  services  in  the  chapel  are  every  Sunday  morning 
and  afternoon,  five  months  in  the  year,  and  a  night  service  ad- 
ditional for  seven  months.  I  officiate  statedly  only  in  morning 
service,  the  other  parts  of  the  day  being  employed  in  other  parts 
of  the  parish,  at  the  church  or  chapel,  and,  therefore,  can  speak 
only  of  the  congregation  in  the  morning.  Then  it  is  large,  as  it 
is  at  all  the  chapels  ;  the  communion's  offerings  liberal,  as 
shown  from  the  tact  that  on  Easter  day  they  amounted  to  the 
sum  of  §270,  and  on  Christmas  day  to  $180,  or  thereabouts. 
At  other  times  the  contributions  are  generous.  There  is  es- 
tablished in  connection  with  St.  Paul's  chapel  a  mission  house, 
open  from  9  A.  M.  to  2  P.  M.,  where  one  of  the  assistant  minis- 
ters is  present  every  day.  There  are  two  laymen  employed  to 
inquire  into  and  examine  every  application  for  aid,  and  report 
the  same  to  the  office.  The  case  is  recorded  in  a  book  kept  for 
that  purpose,  and  a  record  made  of  all  that  was  done  in  each 
case.  The  applicants  are  from  vestrymen  wanting  clergymen, 
clergymen  wanting  parishes,  poor  wanting  help,  the  sick  medi- 
cine, the  emigrant  advice,  &c.  The  office  is  in  communication 
with  most  of  the  extant  institutions  of  charity  in  the  city  of 
New-York.  Cards  are  placed  in  hotels  and  eating  houses,  in- 
viting guests,  in  my  own  name,  to  attend  St.  Paul's  chapel, 
where  free  sittings  are  provided.  We  have  received  letters  from 
persons  we  have  aided,  expressing  their  thanks  to  Trinity  Church. 

Q.  Do  you  think  Trinity  Church  has  done  its  utmost  to  make 
the  capital  of  the  property  of  that  corporation,  available  for  the 
founding,  or  support  or  promotion  of  reli  gious,  charitable  or 
educational  institutions  or  purposes  1  A.  I  can  speak  only  of 
what  I  have  known  of  Trinity  Church  since  my  connection  with 
it  in  June,  1855,  and  I  say  in  answer  to  the  question,  that  I  have 
observed  an  earnest  disposition  so  to  do  on  the  part  of  the  rector, 
wardens  and  vestrymen  of  that  corparation. 

Adjourned  to  4  P.  M.,  Thursday. 


62 


[Senate 


Thursday  Afternoon,  Feb.  19,  1857. 
Present,  the  Senate  Committee,  Messrs.  Spencer,  Noxon  and 
Ramsey;  Judge  Parker  and  0.  Meads,  Esq.,  counsel  for  Trinity 
Cliurch. 

Rev.  Sullivan  H.  Weston  recalled.  Examined  by  counsel  for 
Trinity  Church. 

Q.  Have  you  any  explanation  to  make  in  regard  to  your 
answer  contained  in  your  former  testimony  ? — [Referring  to  testi- 
mony taken  before  the  committee  in  New- York.]  A.  I  con- 
sidered that  when  I  said  that  I  could  not  answer  the  question, 
that  that  was  the  end  of  my  testimony;  the  chairman  of  the 
committee  observing  that  that  would  do,  and  the  rest  of  the 
answer  as  given  was  said  after  I  had  supposed  my  evidence  was 
closed,  and  as  I  supposed,  in  the  way  of  conversation,  to  the 
committee;  and  when  I  alluded  to  their  property,  I  alluded  to 
the  current  reports  as  to  their  boundless  wealth.  I  was  very 
desirous  to  come  up  and  qualify,  lest  my  former  testimony  might 
be  misunderstood. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  vestry  of  Trinity  Church  has  done  its 
utmost  to  make  the  capital  of  the  property  of  that  corporation 
available  for  the  founding,  or  support,  or  promotion  of  religious, 
charitable  or  educational  institutions  or  purposes  1  A.  I  can 
answer  that  question  as  I  did  in  the  first  instance.  I  do  not 
know  what  their  capabilities  are,  but  my  opinion  was,  that  less 
should  be  given  abroad  and  more  in  Trinity  parish.  By  abroad 
I  mean  any  where  out  of  our  parish .  I  do  not  doubt  the  sin 
cerity  of  the  vestry  in  trying  to  do  the  best  they  could. 

Q.  Have  you  any  different  opinion  on  this  subject  than  you 
had  when  examined  before  ?  A.  My  opinion  is  the  same  now 
as  then. 

Q.  Was  not  the  reply  of  the  chairman  of  the  committee,  at 
the  previous  examination,  that  w  that  would  do,"  intended  to  dis- 
miss you?    A.  Yes. 

By  the  Senate  Committee : 

Q.  Is  there  not  great  complaint  among  the  clergy  of  Trinity 
Church  at  the  doings  and  dealings  of  the  vestry  ?  A.I  have 
heard  some  complaints. 


No.  95.] 


63 


Q.  If  you  had  known,  when  you  answered  before,  that  the 
property  of  the  church  was  worth  $6,000,000  or  7,000,000,  would 
you  not  have  answered  as  before  1  A.  My  answer  is,  that  I 
should  want  more  done  in  the  lower  part  of  the  city,  and  less 
elsewhere. 

Q.  Was  it  not,  a  short  time  ago,  in  agitation  among  the  clergy 
of  Trinity  parish,  to  make  a  representation,  in  a  united  manner, 
of  the  wrong  doings  of  the  vestry  %    A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Were  you  not  spoken  to  by  some  of  the  clergy  about  the 
necessity  of  some  such  interference  to  change  the  dealings  and 
policy  of  Trinity  Church?  A.  Some  of  the  clergy  had  agreed 
with  me  that  more  should  be  done  down  town,  and  this  wras  pre- 
vious to  their  ]ast  action  in  appointing  additional  force  in  the 
parish. 

Q.  Has  not  Dr.  Higby  and  others,  represented  to  you  that 
the  policy  of  the  vestry  wTas  ruinous  to  the  church  1  A.  I  do 
not  remember  of  others,  I  know  that  Dr.  Higby  has  spoken  of 
the  past  policy  as  not  being  the  best  policy. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  appointing  force  in  the  parish  ;  when  did  it 
take  place  ?  A.  About  two  years  ago  ;  do'nt  recollect  the  time 
nearer. 

By  Counsel  for  Trinity  Church. 

Q.  I  want  you  to  explain  what  you  mean  by  saying  you  heard 
some  complaints  among  the  clergy,  about  the  dealings  and 
doings  of  the  vestry  ?  A.  One  complaint  was  in  reference  to 
the  wish  for  increased  expenditures  dowrn  town,  in  order  to  meet 
the  wants  of  the  poor. 

Q.  Were  those  complaints  made,  before  the  additional  minis- 
ters of  Trinity  Church  were  appointed'?    A.  They  were. 

Q.  If  you  had  known  that  the  wThole  income  of  Trinity 
Church  was  only  about  $100,000  per  annum,  should  you  say  that 
they  could  accomplish  more  good  with  it  than  they  have  done  1 
A.  I  think  they  could  not. 

Q.  You  stated  that  Dr.  Higby  complained  of  the  past  policy 
as  not  being  the  best  policy,  in  what  respect;  did  he  think  it 


64 


I  Senate 


not  the  best?  A.  One,  was  in  reference  to  more  enlarged  pro- 
vision down  town,  and  the  other,  in  reference  to  the  building  of 
Trinity  Chapel  up  town,  to  accommodate  the  parishioners  who 
had  moved  up  town. 

Q.  Have  both  those  defects  been  supplied  ?  A.  The  chapel 
has  been  built,  and  we  need  more  means  down  town,  in  Trinity 
parish,  if  they  can  afford  it. 

By  the  Committee  : 

Q.  Is  there  not  a  great  want  of  Episcopal  churches  in  New- 
York,  for  the  accommodation  of  the  poor,  or  working  classes  1 
A.  Undoubtedly  ;  heretofore,  we  have  not  had  force  enough  to 
fill  the  churches  we  had  ;  that,  is  now  in  a  great  measure  re- 
medied There  is  no  necessity  of  building  more  churches  in 
that  part  of  the  town,  until  those  already  constructed,  are  filled. 

Q.  Is  there  not  a  great  want  of  Episcopal  churches  in  the 
eastern  and  northeastern  parts  of  the  city,  for  the  poor  or  work- 
ing-classes ?  A.  I  presume  it  is  so;  it  is  so  represented.  It  is 
not  in  my  parish.  I  do  not  know  what  the  religious  opinions 
are  of  the  population  in  those  parts  of  the  city. 

Examination  by  counsel  for  Trinity  church. — Samuel  T.  Skid- 
more  called  and  sworn — Q.  Are  j'ou  a  member  of  the  vestry  of 
Trinity  church  ]  How  long  have  you  been,  and  how  long  a 
member  of  the  standing  committe  %  A.  I  have  been  a  member 
of  the  vestry  about  ten  years,  and  of  the  standing  committee 
some  six  or  eight  years. 

Q.  Is  there  any  rule  of  the  vestry,  or  directions  of  the  stand- 
ing  committee,  which  prevents  a  corporator  seeing  the  list  of 
the  corporators  ?    A.  None  that  I  am  aware  of,  or  ever  heard  of. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  that  any  corporator  has  a  right  to  see 
the  list  1    A.  I  do. 

Q.  If  there  has  been  a  refusal  to  show  such  list,  was  it  by  any 
directions  of  the  vestry,  or  standing  committee?  A.  No,  sir; 
not  that  I  am  aware  of. 

Q.  Was  ever  any  request,  either  for  an  inspection,  or  copy  of 
the  list  of  corporators,  brought  to  the  attention  of  the  vestry  ? 


No.  95.] 


65 


A.  The  attention  of  the  vestry  was  called  to  an  application  by 
Dr.  Wainright  to  get  a  copy  of  the  list  of  corporators. 

Q.  Was  it  granted?   A.  It  was,  unanimously,  I  believe. 

Q.  Was  any  other  application,  either  for  an  inspection,  or 
copy,  ever-  made  to  the  vestry  1    A.  Not  that  I  am  aware  of. 

Q.  Have  the  grants  made  by  the  vestry  been  made  in  a  parti- 
zan  spirit,  or  with  reference  to  "  high"  church  and  "  low"  church 
opinions  1  A.  I  should  say,  decidedly  not.  I  would  say  fur- 
ther, that  the  question  of  11  high"  and  "  low"  church,  during 
the  time  I  have  been  in  the  vestry,  has  been  very  seldom,  if  ever, 
alluded  to;  and  if  I  thought  that  any  application,  in  all  other 
respects  meritorious,  should  be  rejected  on  the  ground  of  its 
being  u  low"  church,  I  should  resign  my  place  as  a  member  of 
the  standing  committee. 

Q.  Have  the  vestry  been,  to  your  knowledge  or  judgment, 
partial  in  making  their  appropriations  to  other  churches  1  A.  I 
have  always  endeavored  to  be  impartial,  myself,  and  I  have  no 
reason  to  doubt  that  the  other  members  were  actuated  by  the 
same  motives. 

Q.  What  influenced  the  standing  committee  and  the  vestry  in 
their  action  upon  the  application  of  St.  Matthew's  Church? 
A.  St.  Matthew's  made  a  large  demand  upon  Trinity,  larger  than 
we  thought  we  could  reasonably  grant,  and  we  thought  that  in  the 
then  state  of  that  parish  that  a  partial  appropriation  would  do 
but  little  good.  I  would  state  that  the  application  seemed 
couched  in  very  peremptory  terms,  and  I  reeollect  that,  as  a 
member  of  the  standing  committee,  I  said  we  should  divest  our- 
selves of  all  feeling  in  consequence  of  the  peculiar  style  of  the 
application,  and  aid  them  if  we  could.  We  had  very  little  faith 
of  the  church  succeeding  if  wTe  did  aid  them.  There  were  other 
churches  in  the  vicinity. 

Q.  It  is  charged  that  the  vestry  of  Trinity  Church  have  mate- 
rially reduced  the  stipends  formerly  paid  to  clergymen  in  the 
city  of  New- York.  How  is  the  fact  1  A.  Trinity  Church  has 
taken  away  stipends  from  certain  churches  whose  congregations 

[Senate,  No.  95.]  5 


[Senate 


they  thought  did  not  need  them,  being  abundantly  able  to  do 
without  them;  and  grants  of  stipends  were  made  in  other 
instances  where  they  were  more  needed.  The  aggregate,  I  think, 
has  not  been  reduced. 

Q.  Do  you  think  Trinity  Church  has  done  its  utmost  to  make 
the  capital  of  the  property  of  that  corporation  available  for  the 
founding  or  support,  or  promotion  of  religious,  charitable  or 
educational  institutions,  or  purposes  1  A.I  think  Trinity 
Church  has  made  appropriations  for  religious  objects  as  far,  if 
not  farther,  than  prudence  would  warrant  in  reference  to  her 
means. 

Q.  Have  its  expenditures  and  donations  exceeded  or  fallen 
short  of  its  income  1  A.  I  think  that  for  the  last  two  or  three 
years  her  expenditures  have  exceeded  her  income  considerably 
over  §100,000;  I  think  for  some  years  previous,  for  the  past  half 
dozen  years,  her  expenditures  have  largely  exceeded  her  income. 

Q.  "Will  you  state  whether  in  your  judgment  these  expendi- 
tures have  been  discreetly  and  wisely  made?  A.  I  certainly 
think  so,  except  as  to  their  undue  extent. 

Q.  What  was  the  rule  that  governed  the  vestry,  in  regard  to 
helping  churches  of  feeble  means  1  A.  I  think  that  one  favorite 
kind  of  appropriation  was  to  parishes  that  had  made  great 
efforts  to  help  themselves,  which  had  received  help  from  others, 
and  where  additional  aid  from  Trinity  Church  was  highly  essen- 
tial to  ensure  success. 

Q.  Is  it  true  that  aid  was  given  to  churches  reluctantly  and 
offensively  ?  A.  Reluctantly,  only,  when  we  thought  our  sym- 
pathies were  running  away  with  our  better  judgment.  Never 
offensively,  I  should  hope.  Applications  are  very  numerous, 
and  very  many  of  a  highly  meritorious  character,  and  which 
enlisted  our  strongest  sympathies,  we  have  felt  compelled  most 
reluctantly  to  refuse.  When  we  had  the  means  we  took  great 
pleasure  in  granting  their  applications. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  applications  were  you  able  to  act 
upon  favorably?    A.  I  certainly  think  not  over  one-tenth. 


No.  95.]  67 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  meeting  of  the  vestry  when  you  had 
not  a  large  number  of  those  applications  pending  before  you  ? 
A.  I  do  not  remember  any  meeting  of  the  vestry  when  there 
were  not  more  or  less  of  these  applications  pending  before  us, 
unless  a  meeting  of  the  vestry  had  been  held  just  after  the 
whole  number  before  the  vestry  of  these  applications  had  been 
disposed  of.  There  have  been  temporary  periods  when  it  was 
generally  understood  that  Trinity's  inability  to  respond  favor- 
ably to  applications  would  cause  temporary  cessation  or  post- 
ponement of  them. 

Q.  Were  any  grants  made  by  the  vestry  with  a  view  to  power 
or  influence  1  A.  I  should  answer,  in  my  opinion,  most  deci- 
dedly no. 

Q.  What  have  you  to  say  about  the  erection  of  Trinity  chapel 
and  the  leases  of  pews  in  it?  A.  Trinity  chapel,  the  chief  ob- 
ject in  building  it  was,  first  and  principally,  for  the  accommo- 
dation of  the  parishioners  and  their  families  who  had  been  a 
long  time  in  the  parish,  but  who  had  removed  too  far  from  the 
parish  church  and  chapel  to  continue  to  worship  therein,  and 
thus,  by  inducing  their  return,  increase  as  a  consequence  the 
number  of  their  constituency.  When  the  chapel  was  finished, 
the  vestry  adopted  such  plans  for  disposing  of  the  pews  as  they 
thought  best  calculated  to  attain  those  objects.  But,  in  as  much 
as  some  of  the  features  of  those  plans  >  such  as  the  disposing  of 
them  by  an  auction,  were  of  a  somewhat  novel  character,  they 
determined  to  act  cautiously  and  prudently  in  the  first  lettings 
of  those  pews.  The  first  day's  biddings  (as  is  known)  were  con- 
fined to  the  then  actual  corporators  of  the  parish,  and  to  those 
who  had  been  pew  owners  at  any  time  within  the  preceding  ten 
years.  After  which  all  such  pews  as  were  not  then  taken,  were 
on  a  subsequent  day  disposed  of  at  auction,  the  competition 
being  general,  to  any  one  desirous  of  procuring  a  pew  in  the 
chapel.  Particular  attention  has  been  called  to  the  fact  that 
the  first  leases  given  for  pews  in  the  new  chapel  were  drawn  so 
as  to  expire  just  one  or  two  days  before  the  annua]  election.  If 
they  had  been  made  to  expire  on  the  day  after  the  election,  the 
lessees  would  not  in  either  case  have  been  entitled,  by  virtue  of 


68  [Senate 

►•■ 

those  leases  alone,  to  vote,  for  the  reason  that  they  would  not 
have  been  members  of  the  congregation  for  the  full  term  of  one 
year  before  the  election.  If  such  feature,  or  any  other  feature, 
about  those  first  leases  be  deemed,  therefore,  peculiar  or  un- 
usual, it  must  be  attributed  to  over  carefulness  on  the  part  of 
the  vestry,  and  a  strong  desire  not  to  admit  improper  persons  as 
corporators.  The  result  of  the  lettings  of  the  pews  was.  how- 
ever ,  highly  satisfactory  and  gratifying  to  the  vestry,  and  they 
thereupon,  in  due  season  and  before  the  next  election,  ordered 
the  future  leases  of  the  pews  to  be  made  to  terminate  on  1st  day 
of  May  in  each  successive  year,  as  in  other  chapels.  Chapel 
consecrated  April  17,  1855,  when  first  services  were  performed; 
election  held  March  25,  1856. 

Q.  Is  it  true  that  the  vestry  was  governed  by  the  policy  of 
"accumulation,'7  as  is  charged  in  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Bradish  X 
A.  I  answer  by  saying  that  I  think  the  expenditure  of  tens  o 
thousands  of  dollars  per  annum  beyond  her  income  does  not 
show  such  a  disposition. 

By  the  Senate  Committee  : 

Q.  What  is  the  lot  at  the  corner  ot  Murray  street  and  Broad- 
way, (  No.  251  Broadway)  worth?  A.  Of  all  the  real  estate  of 
Trinity  Church,  there  is  not  one  that  I  consider  so  valuable,  as 
that  on  the  corner  of  Murray  street  and  Broadway.  I  should 
think  it  would  sell  for  $75,000,  or  100,000,  if  it  was  entirely 
free  from  lease,  or  any  incumbrances. 

Q.  Will  you  see  what  it  is  returned  at,  in  this  report  of  Tri- 
nity Church,  (showing  witness  report.)?  A.  It  is  stated  here, 
at  $36,750. 

Q.  When  you  made  the  report,  did  you  know  of  the  sale  to 
James  H.  Noe?  A.  I  recollect  the  sale  of  a  Greenwich  street 
lot  for  $20,000,  but  do  not  remember  the  purchaser's  name,  nor 
whether  the  sale  was  before,  or  alter  the  Vestry's  report. 

Q.  Bid  you  know  of  the  sale  at  the  time  it  was  made  1  A. 
I  did.  If  it  was  sold  before  the  report,  it  was  included  through 
inadvertence. 


No.  95.J 


69 


Q.  Were  you  a  vestryman  at  the  time  the  report  of  Feb.  15, 
1856  was  made?   A.  Yes  Sir. 

Q.  Did  you  not,  with  others,  negotiate  for  the  disposition  of 
property,  on  the  corner  of  Chambers  and  Church  streets,  and 
what  valuation  did  you  put  upon  it,  for  the  Hudson  River  Rail- 
road Company,  and  at  what  time  was  the  bargain  made  1  A. 
$5000  per  annum,  which  is  5  per  cent  on  $100,000. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  make  the  lot  worth,  estimating  it  in 
that  manner?  A.  It  would  be  worth  $100,000,  estimating  it  in 
that  manner.  The  church  put  no  valuation  on  it,  but  only 
talked  about  what  it  would  rent  for. 

Q.  Does  not  Trinity  Church  rent  her  lots  in  all  cases,  at  five 
per  cent  on  what  she  estimates  to  be  their  value  ?  A.  It  is  the 
usual  custom,  where  the  leases  are  renewable,  but  where  a  lease 
falls  in,  we  do  not  feel  ourselves  bound  by  any  such  rule. 

Q.  Will  you  look,  and  see  what  those  lots  are  returned  at  1 
(showing  witness  report.)  A.  They  are  returned  at  $29,500, 
based  on  the  assessor's  valuation. 

Adjourned  to  4  P.M.  on  Friday. 


Friday,  February  20,  1857. 

Present: — Senate  committee  and  counsel  as  before. 

Examination  of  Mr.  Samuel  JFl  Skidmore,  continued — Q.  By 
Mr.  Spencer.  During  the  three  years  Trinity  incurred  a  debt  of 
over  $100,000,  was  she  not  building  Trinity  Chapel'?  A.  She 
was.  Those  expenditures  I  allude  to  were  independent  of  the 
building  of  the  Chapel. 

Q,  Is  the  Annunciation  a  feeble  church  ?  A.  As  to  its  pre- 
sent circumstances  and  condition  I  am  entirely  ignorant. 

Q.  What  sum  has  Trinity  given  her  within  a  year  or  two 
past  ?  A.  The  sum,  as  appears  by  the  report,  in  the  aggregate, 
is  $26,800.  It  appears  by  the  report  to  have  been  given  within 
five  years  preceding  the  date  of  the  report.  We  gave  St.  Luke's 
Church,  for  the  year  preceding  the  date  of  the  report,  $2,100 


70 


[Senate 


which  I  think  was  larger  than  any  preceding  year.  I  suppose 
we  shall  not  give  them  less  the  present  year.  The  Annuncia- 
tion and  St.  Luke's  Churches  are  reputed  to  be  high  churches. 

Q.  Do  you  find  any  such  sums  given  to  any  low  churches 
during  the  same  time.  A.  No  sir.  I  see  no  such  sums  given  to 
either  high  or  low  churches. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  a  corporator  to  look  at  the  list  of  cor- 
porators. A.  I  don't  know  that  I  ever  saw  one  examining  the 
list. 

Q.  Do  you  think  you  know  of  all  the  expenditures  of  Trinity 
Church,  ecclesiastical  or  otherwise  1    A.I  should  think  I  did. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  such  disbursements  that  were  not 
directly  for  charitable,  religious  or  benevolent  purposes  ?  A.  I 
think  very  probable  there  might  have  been  disbursements  for 
other  than  those  objects. 

Q.  What  other  object  would  they  expend  money  for  ?  A.  I 
cannot  call  to  mind  the  particulars  of  other  disbursements. 

Q.  Is  the  estate  of  Trinity  Church  increasing  in  value.  A.  I 
think  it  is  worth  more  now  than  at  any  former  period,  and  more 
than  when  assessor's  valuation  was  made. 

Q  Does  the  vestry  make  an  annual  report  of  the  financial 
condition  of  the  corporation.  A.  It  is  the  duty  of  the  comp- 
troller, as  well  as  the  custom  for  him  to  make  such  report  to  the 
vestry. 

Q.  Is  there  a  report  made  by  the  vestry  to  the  corporators  1 
A.  There  is  not. 

Q.  Is  the  annual  report  of  the  comptroller  printed  or  circu- 
lated?   A.  It  is  not. 

Q.  What  appropiiations  within  the  three  years  preceding  13th 
April,  1855,  has  Trinity  Church  made  to  institutions  of  charity, 
benevolence  and  learning  in  the  city  of  New- York  1  A.  I  read 
from  the  report  of  the  church  :  "  Grants  of  burial  plots  in 
Trinity  cemetery  to  the  Orphan  Asylum  a  plot  of  C21  square 
feet  ;  to  the  Society  of  Aged  and  Indigent  Females  a  plot  con- 


No.  95.] 


71 


taining  300  square  feet ;  to  the  Protestant  Benefit  Society  a  plot 
containing  600  square  feet  ;  to  Christ's  church  a  plot  to  be 
selected  ;  to  the  Orphans  Home  a  plot  to  be  selected;"  and  as 
this  was  the  period  during  which  we  were  building  Trinity  chapel, 
I  presume  there  were  no  others. 

Question  by  Judge  Parker : — How  long  were  the  vestry  in 
making  out  their  report  1    A.  Several  months. 

Q.  If  there  was  any  omission  to  correct  the  report  of  the 
church,  in  regard  to  a  lot  sold  after  the  report  was  made  out 
and  before  its  date,  was  it  from  design  or  inadvertence  1  A. 
It  was  from  inadvertence  undoubtedly. 

Q.  Does  the  report  of  the  vestry  of  Trinity  Church  state  the 
valuation  of  the  real  estate  of  the  corporation,  as  founded  upon 
the  estimates  of  the  vestry,  or  upon  the  valuations  of  the  city 
assessor,  made  for  the  purposes  of  city  taxation  ?  A.  Not  as  her 
own  valuation,  but  as  the  valuation  of  the  sworn  city  assessors  ; 
I  would  further  say,  that  the  vestry  had  no  desire  to  depreciate 
the  value  of  their  property  by  adopting  the  valuation  of  the  city 
assessors  as  the  basis  of  their  report,  for  they  supposed  that  to  be 
near  enough  for  all  practical  purposes,  and  if  deemed  below  its 
real  or  actual  value  any  two  or  three  gentlemen,  familiar  with 
the  value  of  city  property,  could  easily  have  agreed  upon  some 
additional  percentage  necessary  to  bring  it  up  to  their  own 
opinion  of  its  fair,  if  not  its  exact  and  actual  value  ;  and  they 
were  equally  anxious  to  avoid  all  exaggeration  of  the  value  of 
their  real  estate,  which  would  thereby  indue ;  large  and  more 
numerous  applications  for  aid,  when  they  have  so  many  beyond 
their  ability  to  grant. 

Q.  When  the  comptroller  makes  his  annual  report  to  vestry, 
what  is  done  with  it  1  A.  The  comptroller  makes  out  his  annual 
report  according  to  custom,  which  is  examined  and  certified  to 
by  an  auditing  committee,  appointed  by  the  vestry  for  that  pur- 
pose. It  is  then  read  to  a  meeting  of  the  vestry,  and  laid  upon 
the  table,  or  ordered  on  file,  subject  to  any  further  examination 
in  detail,  by  any  member  of  the  vestry. 


72 


[Senatb 


Q.  How  long  has  it  been  the  practice  to  make  these  annual 
reports  1  A.  During  the  whole  time  of  my  being  a  member  of 
the  vestry,  and,  as  I  suppose,  always. 

Q.  What  is  the  object  in  taking  mortgages,  where  a  grant  is 
made  1  A.  These  church  mortgages  are  taken  and  held  by 
Trinity  church,  not  for  their  own  private  benefit,  but  (and  in 
good  faith)  for  the  benefit  of  other  churches.  They  never  have 
demanded,  nor  do  they  expect  to  demand,  either  the  principal  or 
interest  of  those  loans,  except  in  occasional  isolated  cases  >  such 
for  instance,  as  the  foreclosure  of  a  prior  mortgage,  or  to  save 
the  church  properties  from  being  disposed  of  improperly,  or  for 
other  than  church  objects  and  purposes.  The  parties  obtaining 
these  loans,  (which  they  look  upon  virtually  as  gifts,)  do  not 
object  to  giving  such  mortgages  on  their  churches,  but  generally 
view  the  requirement  of  them  as  a  wise  and  conservative  mea- 
sure for  perpetuating  the  original  object  and  intention  of  the 
grant.  The  character  of  these  mortgages  is  so  well  and  so  gene- 
rally understood,  that  an  attempt  to  foreclose  any  one  of  themr 
on  the  part  of  Trinity  church,  for  the  purpose  of  restoring  the 
amount  again  to  their  own  coffers,  would  be  regarded  as  little 
short  of  absolute  dishonesty.  If  the  same  objects  aimed  at  in 
these  loans,  could  be  equally  well  secured  in  some  other  way,  I 
confidently  believe  that  no  desire  on  the  part  of  Trinity  church 
to  keep  alive  a  sense  of  obligation  to  her  on  the  part  ol  the 
recipients  of  her  favors  would,  for  one  moment,  stand  in  the 
way  of  the  change.  For  the  foregoing  reasons,  I  think  that  the 
principal  and  interest  of  those  mortgages,  (amonting  to  $571,. 
952,)  ought  not  to  be  considered  as  part  of  the  wealth  of  Trinity 
church,  nor  be  made  to  show  a  seeming  intention,  on  her  part,  to 
withhold  from  the  Honorable  the  Senate,  essential  and  import- 
ant facts  respecting  her  property. 

Q.  Has  the  church  ever  foreclosed  any  of  these  mortgages  ? 
A.  None  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Can  you  make  any  statement  relative  to  the  interest  of 
Trinity  church  in  St.  John's  Park,  and  the  reason  it  was  omitted 
in  their  report  I    A.  I  will  state  that  Trinity  church  looked 


No.  95.]  73' 

upon  that  park  as  so  permanently  appropriated  for  the  purposes 
of  a  park,  that  the  sale  of  it,  apparently,  no  more  entered  their 
minds,  than  the  sale  of  one  of  their  burial  grounds.  The  agita- 
tion-of  the  subject  of  the  sale  was  started  by  the  other  property 
owners,  after  the  report  of  the  church  was  made.  The  statement 
upon  that  subject  in  the  supplemental  report  of  the  vestry  is  cor- 
rect; the  whole  number  of  lots  interested  in  the  park,is  sixty-four, 
of  which  Trinity  Church  owns  seven,being  one-ninth  of  the  whole. 
I  will  further  state  it  was  supposed  on  part  of  some  of  the  pro- 
perty owners  that  they  would  be  able  to  get  from  the  United 
States  Government  some  six  or  seven  hundred  thousand  dollars 
for  the  property.  I  do  not  know  whether  they  actually  had  an 
offer  for  it  or  not,  but  even  if  sold  at  that  price,  the  pro-rata 
share  of  Trinity  Church  would  be  about  seventy  thousand  dol- 
lars. St.  John's  chapel  and  parsonage  and  Sunday  school  stand 
on  these  seven  lots,  the  rest  is  vacant  ground. 

Q.  Have  you  been  on  the  committee  to  examine  the  comptrol- 
ler's report,  and  had  you  free  access  to  all  the  books,  papers 
and  accounts  1  A.I  have  been  on  the  committee,  and  had  free 
access  to  all  the  books,  papers  and  accounts. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  any  member  of  the  vestry  being  de- 
nied free  access  to  the  books  ?  A.  Never  knew  or  heard  of  any 
such  thing,  except  in  the  testimony  annexed  to  the  committee's 
report. 

Q.  Have  the  standing  committee  power  to  sell  a  lot  without 
the  consent  of  the  vestry'?  A.  It  is  not  their  custom,  and  I 
understand  they  have  not  the  power. 

Q.  What  means  have  the  members  of  ever  knowing  the  pro- 
ceedings of  the  standing  committee  ?  A.  The  standing  commit- 
tee keep  full  minutes  of  all  their  proceedings,  and  which  are 
read  to  the  vestry  at  every  vestry  meeting. 

Q.  Is  each  report  and  recommendation  by  the  standing  com- 
mittee then  passed  upon  separately  by  the  vestry  7  A.  They 
are. 

Q.  Have  the  vestry  in  any  way  endeavored  to  control  the  free 
opinions  and  acts  of  the  vestry  and  ministers  who  had  received  or 
were  seeking  aid  for  their  churches  1    A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 


74  [S  ENATE 

Q.  State  the  proceedings  of  the  vestry  for  making  the  minis- 
tration of  the  church  more  efficient  in  the  lower  part  of  the  city, 
and  the  dates  at  which  they  took  place?  A.  May  8th,  1854,  at 
a  vestry  meeting  resolutions  were  offered  for  the  appointment  of 
Dr.  Haight  and  Messrs.  Hobart  and  Weston,  as  assistant  minis- 
ters; the  resolutions  were  referred  to  a  committee  on  the  state 
of  the  parish.    March  5,  1855,  resolutions  were  adopted  that  on 

 day,  the  assistant  ministers  should  be  appointed  by  ballot, 

and  that  they  be  assigned  to  a  particulrr  congregation.  March 
26,  1855,  the  above  named  gentlemen  were  appointed  assistant 
ministers,  and  on  the  11th  of  June,  1855,  they  were  severally 
assigned  to  their  respective  congregations.  The  resolutions  of 
the  8th  of  May,  1854,  had  reference  to  the  appointment  of  assist- 
tant  ministers,  and  their  assignment  to  their  different  churches. 
The  resolutions  of  8th  May  had  reference  to  the  appointment 
of  the  different  churches. 

Q.  State  what  were  the  proceedings  of  the  vestry  and  stand- 
ing committee  on  the  subject  of  the  application  of  the  Church  of 
St.  Timothy,  and  what  influenced  their  action?  A.  The  Rev. 
Mr.  Howland  made  an  application  to  the  vestry  of  Trinity 
Church  of  a  noble  and  magnanimous  character,  which  was 
referred  as  is  usual  to  the  standing  committee,  though  at  a  time 
when  the  committee  considered  the  financial  condition  of  the 
parish  illy  calculated  to  respond  favorably  to  so  large  an 
application.  They  were  still  anxious  if  possible  not  to  be 
obliged  to  reject  it.  The  proposal  on  the  part  of  Mr.  How- 
land,  involved  liabilities  to  the  amount  of  twenty  thousand  dol- 
lars. He  proposed  to  appropriate  dollar  for  dollar,  or  upwards, 
for  the  same  object.  The  committee  were  so  desirous  of  doing 
something,  they  invited  Mr.  Howland  on  one  or  two  occasions  to 
meet  with  them  in  committee.  After  long  and  anxious  consid- 
eration on  the  subject,  they  felt  compelled  to  report  to  the  vestry 
unfavorably  to  the  application.  The  vestry  did  not  adopt  the 
report,  but  sent  it  back  for  further  consideration.  Yet,  after 
farther  consideration,  and  with  the  strong  sympathies  of  every 
member  of  the  vestry  in  behalf  of  the  application,  the  standing 
committee  again  reported  unanimously  against  it,  for  the  reason 
that  the  increased  magnitude  of  their  debt  in  their  judgment 


No.  95.] 


75 


forbade  it.  Notwithstanding  this  report,  the  vestry  ordered  it 
to  lie  on  the  table,  where  it  is  now. 

Q.  Were  any  applications  made  during  the  last  year  for  the 
establishment  of  two  free  churches  in  destitute  parts  of  the  city, 
provided  the  applicants  would  furnish  half  the  cost?  A.  None, 
except  the  application  to  Mr.  Rowland. 

Q.  How  long  a  lease  is  there  on  the  lot  No.  251,  Broadway, 
and  at  what  annual  rent  I  A.  An  unexpired  lease  of  about  six- 
teen years,  and  at  an  annual  rent  of  twenty-six  dollars  and  a 
quarter. 

Q.  Was  there  any  service  in  Trinity  Chapel  until  its  conse- 
cration, and  on  what  date  was  its  consecration,  and  what  day  was 
next  election  held  1  A.  There  wras  no  service  previous  to  the 
consecration,  which  was  on  the  17th  day  of  April,  1855,  and  the 
next  election  was  on  Easter  Tuesday,  the  25th  March,  1856. 

Q.  Wliat  statement  have  you  to  make  in  regard  to  the  valua- 
tion of  the  property  of  the  church,  which  would  be  correct  upon 
Ely's  and  Dodd's  valuations  of  the  real  estate  3  A.  There  seems 
to  be  a  mistake  in  the  principle  adopted  for  arriving  at  the  nett 
total  present  value  of  the  real  estate,  as  stated  on  page  twelve  of 
the  Senate  report.  The  Vestry's  estimate,  taking  the  valuations 
of  the  assessors  as  a  guide,  irrespective  of  the  leases  and  deduc- 
tions,  was  $2,668/710. 

Q.  Then  if  the  above  valuation  of  $2,668,710,  makes  the 
present  value  of  the  interest  of  the  lessees  to  be  $1,222,338,  what 
would  the  interest  of  the  lessees  be  on  Ely  and  Dodd's  valuation 
of  $5,874,023  ?     A.  $2,690,443,  or  very  nearly  that  amount. 

The  aggregate  footing  in  Senate  committee  report  is.  $7,092,544 
From  which  deduct  on  account  of  leases  according  to 

above  corrected  estimate,   $2,690,443 

And  the  church  debt  of   648,913 

  3,339,356 

Leaves,  &   $3,753,188 


[Senate 


The  nett  total  present  value  even  on  Messrs.  Ely  and  Dodd's 

valuation,  should  therefore  be   $3,753,188 

Instead  of  (as  stated  in  report  of  Senate  committee) .  5,221,293 

Making  in  this  one  item  an  error  evidently  of  about  $1,468,105 


From  the  nett  total  present  value  as  above  corrected  , 

of   $3,753,188 

Deduct  the  church  mortgages  and  interest,  $571,952 

And  the  amount  set  down  for  St.  John's 

park,   400,000 

  971,952 


And  a  nett  total  present  value  would  then  remain  of  $2,781,236 
As  the  nett  amount  resulting  [from  the  adoption  of 
Messrs.  Ely  and  Dodd's  valuation.    By  adding 
thereto  a  prospective  pecuniary  interest  in  St. 
John's  park,  the  sum  of  say   $75,000 


And  it  would  make  the  aggregate  amount,   $2,856,236 


This,  be  it  remembered,  is  a  valuation  entirely  irrespective  of 
the  existing  encumbrances  by  leases,  which  would  greatly  reduce 
its  present  value  to  Trinity  Church  ;  and  be  it  also  remembered 
that  nearly  one-half  of  the  entire  real  estate  brings  Trinity 
Church  an  income  of  less  than  five  hundred  dollars  per  annum. 

By  Senate  Committee  : 

Q.  What  valuation  did  the  vestry  put  upon  St.  John's  park  ? 
A  They  did  not  profess  to  put  a  valuation  on  that  property,  but 
after  showing  the  strongest  disinclination  to  sell  at  all,  and  being 
earnestly  importuned  and  pressed  to  name  some  terms  upon 
which  they  would  give  their  consent  to  sell,  they  finally  agreed 
to  do  so,  when  their  share  of  the  proceeds  of  the  sale  should  be 
$400,000. 

Q.  Have  the  standing  committee  power  to  lease  lots  without 
the  consent  of  the  vestry  1  A.  They  have  to  lease,  but  not  to 
sell.  The  standing  committee  leases  property  without  consult- 
ing the  vestry. 


No.  95.] 


Q.  Have  not  the  vestry  been  urged  by  some  of  its  members 
to  print  the  annual  report  1  A.  There  was  one  very  respectable 
member  of  our  vestry  has  been  solicitous  to  have  the  report 
printed  for  the  use  of  the  vestry,  but  a  majority  have  been  dis- 
inclined to  do  so. 

Rev.  Edward  G.  Higbee,  called  by  counsel  for  Trinity  Church. 

Q.  What  explanation  do  you  desire  to  make  in  relation  to 
your  former  testimony  before  this  committee  %  On  the  3d  of 
Dec,  1856, 1  was  called  upon  to  give  testimony  before  a  com- 
mittee of  \he  Senate  of  the  State  of  New- York,  in  relation  to 
parish  of  Trinity  Church  in  the  city  of  New- York.  The  inter- 
rogatories were  few,  and  the  answers  necessarily  short  and 
general,  and  I  fear  that  without  further  explanation  my  testi- 
mony will  not  be  understood.  I  kept  no  memoranda  of  my  in- 
terview with  the  committee,  but  as  well  as  I  can  remember,  one 
of  the  first  proposed  to  me  was  as  follows  (substantially) : 

"  During  the  time  that  you  have  been  connected  with  the 
parish  of  Trinity  Church,  in  your  opinion  has  the  design  of  the 
original  foundation  of  the  same  been  fully  carried  out  ? "  A. 
u  My  belief  is,  that  owing  to  temporary  and  accidental  circum- 
stances, the  influence  of  which  has  been  increasing  almost  from 
the  time  that  I  became  a  minister  of  the  parish,  the  original 
design  of  this  charity  has  not  been  fully  carried  out." 

This,  in  substance,  was  my  answer.  I  was  not  requested  to 
state  what  the  "  temporary  and  accidental  circumstances"  were 
to  which  I  alluded.  Such  a  statement,  however,  appears  neces- 
sary, to  show  the  true  meaning  of  my  testimony. 

I  therefore  beg  permission  to  say,  that  I  alluded  to  the  general 
and  yearly  increasing  removal  of  the  residences  of  the  citizens 
of  New- York  towards  the  more  northern  part  of  the  island,  and 
to  the  effects  of  this  upon  the  churches,  of  all  denominations, 
in  the  lower  parts  of  the  city. 

The  effect  upon  Trinity  church,  and  its  chapels,  (more  partic- 
ularly upon  Trinity  church  and  St.  Paul's  chapel,)  was,  first, 
to  deprive  them,  gradually  and  surely,  of  their  regular  congre- 
gations, and  of  course,  of  their  congregational  and  parochial 


[Senate 


spirit,  responsibility  and  efficiency;  and  secondly,  to  diminish 
and  weaken,  in  a  continually  increasing  ratio,  the  constituency 
of  the  corporation  ;  thus  destroying  the  equilibrium  of  the 
parish,  and  undermining  its  foundations' as  an  institution  of 
public  charity. 

For  a  long  time  there  seemed  to  be  no  remedy  for  this  evil. 
The  vestry  were  restrained,  (as  I  have  always  understood,)  by 
the  terms  of  their  charter,  from  acquiring  real  estate,  and  there- 
fore, could  not  follow  the  members  of  their  church  to  their  new 
residences,  and  supply  them  with  places  of  worship. 

At  length,  a  means  of  removing  the  difficulty  was  afforded,  by 
a  general  act  of  the  Legislature,  passed,  I  believe,  in  1850. 
Under  the  provisions  of  this  act,  ground  was  purchased,  upon 
which  Trinity  chapel  now  stands.  This  chapel  was  opened  in 
1855,  in  the  spring,  and  it  has  been,  and  is  now  filled,  with  a 
large,  stated,  intelligent  and  charitable  congregation;  and  there 
can  be  no  reasonable  doubt,  that  the  result  of  this  decided 
movement  in  a  right  direction,  is  a  most  salutary  one  to  the 
whole  parish,  and  is  full  of  promise  for  the  future. 

I  believe  that  the  clergy  of  Trinity  Church  are  united,  and 
that  the  parishioners  sympathise  with  them  in  the  desire  and  the 
resolution  to  make,  so  far  as  in  them  lies,  this  ancient  parish  an 
instrument  of  good  to  the  church,  and  to  the  community  at 
large,  to  the  utmost  extent  of  its  resources. 

Another  question  proposed  by  the  committee,  was  in  sub- 
stance as  follows  : 

"  Have  you  ever  seen  a  list  of  the  constituents  of  Trinity 
Parish  ?" 

A.  (In  substance,)  "  I  have  never  seen  such  a  list.  Dr.  Wain- 
right  and  I  made  repeated  efforts  to  procure  one,  without  suc- 
cess. Dr.  Wainright,  however,  as  he  informed  me,  did  obtain 
it  from  the  vestry  after  he  was  elected  to  the  episcopate." 

This  answer  is  too  vague  and  general.  Had  there  been  oppor- 
tunity for  more  careful  recollection  when  I  was  before  the  com- 
mittee, my  answer  would  have  been  as  follows  : 


No.  59.J  79 

"  For  a  long  time  Drs.  Wainwright,  Parks,  and  myself,  assis- 
tant ministers,  had  been  filled  with  anxiety  and  apprehension  on 
account  of  the  steady  diminution  of  the  constituency  of  the 
parish.  Wishing  to  keep  ourselves  informed  of  the  real  condi- 
tion ot  things  we  sought  to  procure  a  true  list  of  the  constituents. 
We  were  reluctant  to  ask  formally  for  the  official  list  of  the 
parish,  because  suggestions  had  been  made  to  us  that  we  might 
thereby  incur  the  imputation  of  intending  to  take  some  active 
part  in  the  Easter  elections.  We  therefore  tried  to  make  a  list 
for  ourselves  from  such  sources  of  information  as  were  within 
our  reach.  Failing  in  this  Dr.  WTainwright  and  I,  (Dr.  Parks* 
being  absent  on  account  of  the  illness,  of  which  afterwards  he 
died.)  resolved  that  we  ought  formally  to  request  a  copy  of  the 
list  kept  in  the  vestry  office,  or  by  the  rector.  Dr.  Wainwright, 
in  his  and  my  behalf,  did  accordingly  make  such  an  application. 
When  he  first  made  it  I  do  not  now  remember,  nor  how  often  it 
was  repeated;  but  I  know  that,  as  he  informed  me,  such  a  list 
was  furnished  him  sometime  after  his  election  to  the  episcopate. 

The  foregoing  explanations  are  true. 

EDWTARD  Y.  HIGBEE. 

New- York,  January  5,  1857. 

Rev.  William  H.  De  Lancy  called  and  sworn;  examination  by 
Senate  Committee. 

Q.  Where  is  your  residence  and  what  is  your  office  \  A.  My 
residence  is  in  Geneva,  Ontario  county,  Western  New-York;  and 
my  office  is  that  of  bishop  of  the  diocese  of  Western  New- York, 
to  which  office  I  was  consecrated  in  1839. 

Q.  What  part  of  the  State  of  New-York  does  your  diocese 
comprehend?  A.  The  western  part,  including  Broome,  Che- 
nango, Madison,  Oneida,  Lewis,  and  Jefferson  counties,  with  all 
the  counties  west  of  them. 

Q.  Has  Trinity  Church,  New- York,  aided  any  of  the  churches 
in  your  diocese  1  A.  Yes,  I  learn  from  the  publications  of  the 
rector  of  Trinity  Church  that  she  has  aided  altogether,  since 
1807,  in  Western  New  York,  about  77  churches,  being  6  before 


80 


[Senate 


the  year  1814,  and  71  churches  since  that  year.  Some  were 
aided  twice.  Of  those  71  aided  since  1814,  about  20  have  been 
aided  since  I  became  bishop. 

Q.  In  what  way  has  the  aid  of  Trinity  Church  been  extended 
to  those  churches  1  A.  In  almost  every  case,  except  Trinity 
church,  Utica,  as  far  as  I  know,  by  grants  of  money,  in  small 
sums,  for  churches  and  parsonages,  for  which  grants  in  some 
cases  Trinity  Church  has  taken  a  mortgage  on  the  church,  and  in 
other  cases  she  has  not. 

Q.  Has  Trinity  Church  ever  foreclosed  any  of  the  mortgages 
on  churches,  or  ever  required  the  annual  interest  on  them  to  be 
paid  to  her  ?  A.  I  have  never  heard  or  known  of  any  such 
case  in  Western  New-York  or  elsewhere.  I  do  not  usually  con- 
secrate a  new  church  edifice,  until  the  vestry  certify  that  its 
debts  are  paid  or  reasonably  provided  for.  A  mortgage  to 
Trinity  Church,  on  which  neither  principal  nor  interest  are 
demanded,  I  do  not  consider  an  obstacle  to  the  consecration  of 
a  new  church,  but  as  additional  security  against  its  alienation 
from  its  holy  objects. 

A.  Has  any  church  in  your  diocese,  to  which  Trinity  has 
made  a  grant  of  money  without  taking  a  mortgage  on  church 
edifice,  ever  been  lost  to  the  congregation  or  diocese  ?  A.  Yes; 
a  church  on  which  Trinity  Church  took  no  mortgage  for  a  grant 
of  $5u0,  was  sold  for  debt,  and  the  congregation  dispersed.  A 
mortgage  to  Trinity  Church  would  have  saved  it,  or  at  least 
saved  the  $500,  for  the  use  of  the  diocese  elsewhere. 

Q.  When  Trinity  Church  has  thus  taken  mortgages  from 
churches  in  your  diocese  for  monies  granted  to  them,  what  has 
been  the  effect  of  this  upon  the  interest  and  condition  of  the 
churches  thus  aided  1  A.  Favorable.  1 .  By  preventing  church 
edifices  from  being  alienated  from  the  holy  objects  for  which 
they  were  erected.  2.  By  encouraging  the  individual  members 
to  sustain  the  church  thus  secured  to  its  object.  3.  By  attract- 
ing outside  people  to  the  church  thus  known  to  be  secured  to  its 
object  without  their  being  called  in  to  help  to  pay  its  debt. 
4.  By  being  an  obstacle  as  a  first  mortgage  against  further  mort- 


No.  95  J 


81 


gages  of  the  church  for  debt.  5.  I  cannot  say  that  I  have  seen 
any  moral,  spiritual,  ecclesiastical,  or  pecuniary  evils  result  from 
such  mortgages  in  my  diocese. 

Q.  Has  Trinity  Church  ever,  to  your  knowledge  or  belief, 
sought  to  exercise  any  influence  over  the  course  or  opinions 
either  of  the  clergy  or  the  parishes  in  your  diocese  1    A.  No. 

Q.  Has  Trinity  Church,  to  your  knowledge  or  belief,  ever 
been  governed  by  party  considerations  in  making  her  grants  to 
churches  in  your  diocese?    A.  No. 

Q.  Has  Trinity  Church  made  any  grants  for  educational  pur- 
poses in  your  diocese  1  A.  Yes,  a  most  important  and  liberal  one 
to  the  value  of  $50,000,  to  Geneva  college  in  1851.  The  grant 
was  made  when  Geneva  college  was  in  a  disastrous  and  critical 
condition,  occasioned  by  the  State  withdrawing  unsuspectedly, 
under  the  two  year  provision  of  the  new  Constitution  of  1846, 
in  regard  to  appropriations,  her  annual  grant  of  $6,000  to  the 
college,  leaving  nearly  $3,000  unpaid,  (and  still  unpaid)  a  debt 
upon  the  college  trustees,  who  were  without  means  to  pay  the 
professors,  all  of  whom  but  the  president  sought  other  posts, 
and  the  students  diminished  in  number  from  eighty  (the  highest 
number  under  the  State  grant)  to  thirty-seven.  When  the  pros- 
pect of  private  endowment  to  maintain  new  professors  was  dim 
and  gloomy,  and  the  very  continuance  of  the  college  dubious,  in 
this  emergency  Trinity  Church  was  asked  to  endow  the  college, 
which  she  did  in  1851  by  a  grant  of  $50,000,  the  interest  at  six 
per  cent,  to  be  paid  annually  until  the  principal  is  paid  on  the 
termination  of  the  Astor  lease,  as  I  understand,  on  the  condition 
that  the  college  be  made  in  its  literary  department  a  free  college 
forever,  to  all  students  that  come  to  it,  and  that  it  take  the  name 
Hobart  Free  College,  by  act  of  the  Legislature.  Since  which 
time  the  faculty  have  been  sustained,  and  the  students  have  in- 
creased from  thirty- seven  to  ninety-six,  a  larger  number  than  it 
ever  had  under  the  State  grant.  And  $22,000  additional  endow- 
ment, viz  :  a  professorship  of  $15,000,  a  fellowship  of  $5,000> 
and  two  scholarships  of  $1,000  each,  and  several  benefactions 
have  been  received  from  private  sources,  not  one  of  which  endow- 


[Senate,  No.  95.]  6 


82 


[Senate 


merits,  I  am  convinced,  would  have  been  made,  without  this 
grant  from  Trinity  Church. 

(J.  Do  you  think  that  the  vestry  of  Trinity  church  has  done 
i  ts  utmost  to  make  the  capital  ot  the  property  of  that  corpora- 
tion available  for  the  founding,  or  support,  or  promotion  of 
religious,  charitable,  or  educational  institutions,  or  purposes  1 
A.  As  I  cannot  name  the  wealthy  church  corporation,  or  indivi- 
dual, in  the  city  of  New- York,  or  elsewhere,  who  I  think  does, 
in  these  respects,  act  with  the  capital  of  the  property  up  to  full 
obligations  to  God,  and  does  the  utmost  with  it;  as  the  question 
covers  the  proceedings  of  the  vestry  before  I  was  born;  as  I  am 
not  now,  and  never  have  been  acquainted  with  the  exact  condi- 
tion, or  external  arrangement  of  the  property  of  Trinity  church, 
and  therefore,  am  not  qualified  to  give  an  opinion  on  such  a 
pumt,  I  can  only  say,  that  if  the  present  rector  and  vestry,  who 
know  about  their  property,  declare  that  they  have  done,  or  are 
doing  to  their  utmost  in  these  respects,  I  would  rely  upon  their 
statement,  as  that  of  honorable,  high  minded,  faithful  and  con- 
scientious men,  in  preference  to  my  own  views,  which  must  be 
founded  on  most  imperfect  knowledge,  and  in  opposition  to  the 
opinions  and  judgments  (respecting  the  use  of  Trinity  church 
property)  of  disappointed  applicants,  eager  expectant  enthusi- 
asts in  experimental  schemes  of  good,  the  heads  of  church 
parties  and  local  enemies,  or  any  other  individuals,  but  practi- 
cally, unacquainted  with  the  facts  of  the  case,  however  pious, 
worthy,  zealous  and  highly  esteemed  I  may  regard  them. 

Q.  What,  in  your  judgment,  would  be  the  effect  of  the  repeal 
of  the  law  of  1814 1  A.  Disastrous  to  the  church,  both  in  New- 
York  city,  and  in  the  country.  Disastrous  to  the  church  in  New- 
York  city  :  1 .  By  engendering,  at  once,  a  long  and  bitter 
litigation  before  the  courts,  between  Trinity  church  corporation 
and  the  other  churches  in  the  city,  as  to  the  constitutionality 
and  legality  of  the  repeal  of  the  law,  requiring,  at  once,  a  repeal 
of  the  law  of  1784,  or  a  modification  of  it  by  another  law  like 
that  of  1814.  2.  By  dividing  the  churches  outside  of  Trinity 
church  corporation  into  parties  for  and  against  Trinity  church, 
on  all  these  points.    3.  By  splitting  up  every  congregation  into 


No.  95.  | 


83 


such  parties.  4.  By  making  the  election  of  vestry  for  Trinity 
church  an  annual  occasion  of  unholy  excitement,  collision  and 
contest,  most  injurious  to  the  character,  piety,  prosperity  and 
usefulness  of  the  church.  5.  By  throwing  an  unquenchable 
firebrand  among  the  clergy  and  laity  in  New- York.  6.  By 
raising,  at  once,  such  questions  as  these  to  distract  the  clergy 
and  parishes:  If  the  rector  of  Trinity  church,  be  the  i:  rector 
of  New-York  and  all  its  inhabitants,"  is  he  not  rector  over 
all  the  churches  under  the  charter  1  Are  not  all  the  other 
rectors  in  New-York,  merely  his  assistants'?  Are  not  all 
the  churches  in  New- York,  merely  chapels  of  Trinity  Church  ? 
Is  not  the  law,  authorizing  separate  parishes  in  the  city, 
unconstitutional  ?  Ought  not  the  charters  of  other  corpora- 
tions to  be  annulled,  as  incompatible  with  the  charter  of 
Trinity  •  which  would  then,  comprise  all  the  inhabitants  of 
the  city  ]  The  law  as  it  stands,  silences  all  such  questions  ; 
repeal  it,  and  in  my  judgment,  with  such  a  property  at  issue, 
and  in  a  city  containing  2000  lawyers,  many,  of  the  highest 
eminence,  and  keenest  penetration,  such  like  questions  would 
start  up  at  once  to  produce  clamor,  confusion,  and  conflict,  and 
to  draw  away  thousands  of  dollars  from  charitable,  religious, 
and  educational  institutions  and  purposes,  to  a  most  baneful 
litigation.  The  repeal  of  the  law,  would  be  disastrous  to  the 
whole  church  of  the  State,  outside  of  the  city.  1 .  By  raising  the 
question,  as  to  the  right  of  dispersing  any  of  this  property  out 
of  the  city,  which  is  denied  by  some,  but  which,  the  present 
corporation  has  admitted,  and  has  temporally  acted  on.  2.  By 
leading  almost  necessarily,  to  the  division  of  all  the  property 
among  the  city  churches.  3.  By  thus  cutting  off,  all  the  feeble 
country  churches  from  the  benefit  of  this  favor.  4.  By  stopping 
what  has  been  a  stream  of  most  salutary  and  fertilizing  benevo- 
lence to  religious,  charitable,  or  educational  institutions  in  the 
rural  districts.  5.  By  presenting  the  church  in  the  city  of  New- 
York,  clergy  and  laity,  in  a  most  unattractive  and  deplorable  atti- 
tude, as  quarrelsome,  abusive  and  repulsive,  estranged  from  each 
other;  pamphleteering  and  publishing  in  anger,  and  stirring  the 
whole  press  in  New-York,  and  in  the  country,  secular  and  re- 
ligious, iuto  sharp,  bitter,  and  ceaseless  controversy,  fatal  to  the 


84 


[Senate 


reputation  of  the  church  for  stability,  quietness,  and  peace,  and 
not  promotive  of  the  sanctification  and  salvation  of  men,  but 
subversive  of  sound  law  and  morals. 

Question  by  Mr.  Spencer.  Is  the  opinion  expressed  in  the 
answer  you  have  given,  your  opinion  of  churchmen  generally? 
A.  My  opinion  is  founded  upon  my  knowledge  and  observation 
of  human  nature  generally,  and  of  religious  controversies  and 
church  contentions,  generally. 

Q.  Have  you  looked  over  the  names  of  the  persons  who  testi- 
fied before  the  committee  in  the  city  of  New- York  ?    A.  Yes  sir. 

Q.  Are  not  the  laymen  who  testified,  among  the  most  liberal 
t)  country  churches'?  A.  I  have  never,  that  I  recollect,  made 
personal  applications  to  any  of  them,  but  some  of  them  bear 
a  high  reputation  for  liberality,  with  other  churchmen  in  New- 
York,  and  I  have  myself,  a  high  personal  regard  for  them.  I 
cannot  answer  as  to  their  liberality  to  country  churches. 


Saturday,  February  21. 

Present :  Senate  Committee  and  Counsel  as  before. 

William  Moore,  called  and  sworn.  Examination  by  counsel 
for  Trinity  Church  : — Q.  Where  do  you  reside?  A.  I  reside  in 
Phillipstown,  Putnam  county,  lately  of  the  firm  of  De  Rhau  and 
Moore,  of  the  city  of  New-York. 

Q.  Have  you  been  a  vestryman  of  Trinity  Church,  and  for 
what  time  ?  A.  I  was  elected  a  vestryman  in  1839,  and  contin- 
ued to  be  so  until  last  autumn,  when  I  resigned  in  consequence 
of  my  removal  from  the  city. 

Q.  Were  you  a  member  of  the  standing  committee  ?  A.  I  was 
for  a  great  many  yearsr  but  don't  remember  how  long.  I  con- 
tinued in  the  standing  committee  up  to  the  period  of  my  resig- 
nation. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  me  whether  the  list  of  corporators  was  open 
to  the  inspection  of  any  corporator?  A.  I  believe  it  to  be  so; 
never  heard  of  any  difficulty  on  the  subject,  until  an  application 


No.  95.J  85 

was  made  by  Dr.  Wainwright  for  a  copy  of  the  list.  The  per- 
sons in  the  office  to  whom  the  application  was  made  were  doubt- 
ful of  the  propriety  of  giving  copies  of  papers,  and  the  request 
was  referred  to  the  vestry,  which  immediately  granted  the 
request;  I  think  unanimously. 

Q.  Was  there  any  rule  or  order  of  the  vestry  preventing 
access  to  the  list  of  corporators'?  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge  or 
belief. 

Q.  Were  the  grants  made  by  the  vestry  made  in  a  partizan 
spirit,  or  with  reference  to  "  high  "  church  or  "  low  "  church 
opinions  1  A.  I  always  endeavored  to  divest  my  mind  as  far  as 
possible  of  every  bias,  in  consulting  on  applications  made  to  the 
vestry,  and  I  believe  my  colleagues  were  equally  conscientious. 

Q.  Is  there  any  foundation  for  the  charge  that  there  was  par- 
tiality in  making  appropriations  to  other  churches  ?  A.  My 
answer  to  the  last  question  will  apply  also  in  a  great  measure 
to  this.  In  so  large  a  body  of  men  as  twenty-three,  the  number 
of  vestry  of  Trinity,  it  is  impossible  that  personal  predilections 
may  not  sometimes  influence  individuals  in  their  votes  on  appli- 
cations. I  believe  it  would  not  be  in  human  nature  to  be  other- 
wise. 

Q.  Was  each  application  discussed  and  decided  upon  its  merits 
and  the  ability  of  the  church,  without  reference  to  "high" 
church  or  "low"  church  opinions  1    Q.  Most  certainly. 

Q.  Is  there  any  ground  for  the  charge  that  the  stipends  have 
been  reduced,  or  have  they  merely  been  transferred  from  the 
wealthier  to  the  more  feeble  churches  ?  A.  My  impression  is 
that  the  aggregate  amount  of  the  stipends  is  as  large  now  as  at 
any  time  that  I  was  in  the  vestry.  The  stipends  have  been 
reduced  and  sometimes  entirely  taken  away  from  richer  congre- 
gations and  given  to  poorer. 

Q.  Do  you  think  Trinity  Church  has  done  its  utmost  to  make 
the  capital  of  the  property  of  that  corporation  available  for  the 
founding,  support  or  promotion  of  religious,  charitable,  or  edu- 
cational institutions  or  purposes  ?    A.  We  have  always  endea- 


86  [Senate 

vored  so  to  do,  and  as  far  as  the  revenues  of  the  church  went,  I 
think  we  succeeded. 

Q.  Is  it  true  that  the  aid  extended  to  feeble  churches  was 
done  reluctantly  or  offensively,  or  with  a  view  to  acquire  any 
power  or  influence  over  the  congregations  or  ministers  of  the 
churches  aided  ?  A.  No.  To  the  first  clause  I  would  say,  on 
the  contrary,  that  it  always  gave  us  great  pleasure  when  we 
could,  to  respond  favorably  to  any  of  the  numerous  applications 
before  us. 

Q.  Have  you  considered  the  mortgages  taken  for  grants  to 
churches  as  available  means  ?  No. 

Q.  Were  they  taken  with  a  view  to  the  benefit  of  Trinity 
Church,  or  with  a  view  to  the  protection  of  the  church  thus 
mortgaged  1  A.  They  were  taken  with  a  view  to  prevent  that 
property  being,  lost  to  the  church  at  large.  In  case  of  a  foreclo- 
sure of  a  Drevious  mortgage  or  some  embarrassment  to  the  church 
that  this  money  advanced  by  Trinity  should  return  to  that 
church  to  be  distributed  again,  or  returned  to  the  same  church. 
I  never  knew  of  any  case  of  a  foreclosure  of  a  mortgage  while 
I  was  in  the  vestry,  nor  do  I  believe  there  ever  was  one. 

Q.  Have  you  been  one  of  the  committee  to  examine  accounts? 
A.  Yes,  for  several  successive  years  I  was  chairman  of  said 
committee;  and  for  many  years  it  was  the  practice  of  the  comp- 
troller to  submit  his  bank  check-book  and  monthly  statement  of 
accounts  to  the  standing  committee. 

Q.  Say  whether  there  was  or  not  free  access  to  all  the  books, 
accounts,  papers,  &c.,.of  the  office  \  A.  I  never  had  occasion  to 
ask  for  any  book,  account,  or  paper,  which  was  not  treely  open 
to  me,  nor  do  I  believe  there  was  any  book  or  account  or  paper 
the  examination  of  which  would  have  been  refused. 

Q.  Will  you  explain  the  case  of  St.  Peter's  church,  referred 
to  in  the  testimony  of  Rev.  Mr.  Beach  in  pp.  119  and  120  of 
report  of  committee  1  A.  St.  Peter's  church  was  aided  by 
Trinity  Chuich  to  the  amount  of  §25,000.  It  was  our  bond  for 
that  amouni.    There  was  a  mortgage  given  by  St.  Peter's  to- 


No.  95.1 


87 


Trinity  Church  on  the  church  property,  to  secure  the  repayment 
of  this,  with  the  bond  of  three  of  the  congregation  as  collateral 
security.  Subsequently  St.  Peter's  church  borrowed  from  Mr. 
Lenox  $22,000,  for  which  they  gave  him  the  bond  of  the  same 
parties,  and  a  second  mortgage  on  the  church.  Trinity  Church 
released  those  who  had  signed  as  security  to  them  either  at  that 
time  or  subsequently,  and  the  mortgage  to  Trinity  Church  then 
became  an  ordinary  church  mortgage,  on  which  payment  was 
not  expected.  Mr.  Lenox  having  only  a  second  mortgage,  lie- 
probably  became  uneasy  as  to  his  security,  on  account  of  the 
accumulation  of  interest  on  the  prior  church  mortgage,  and, 
upon  an  application  of  St.  Peter's  church  to  the  vestry,  they 
consented  to  give  Mr.  Lenox's  mortgage  of  $22,000  a  priority  to 
the  extent  of  the  capital,  and  one  year's  interest  on  it  over  nil 
the  interest  due  or  to  grow  due  on  our  church  mortgage.  That 
arrangement  was  made  in  July,  1844.  Subsequently,  about  18 
months  after,  the  vestry  of  St.  Peter's  applied  to  us  to  give  Mr. 
Lenox's  mortgage  a  priority  over  our  mortgage,  or  to  discharge 
our  mortgage.  This  application  was,  after  mature  deliberation 
in  the  standing  committee  and  vestry,  declined,  on  the  ground 
of  the  general  policy  of  the  church  in  taking  these  mortgages 
as  security  for  the  benefit  of  the  church. 

By  the  committee  : 

Q.  When  you  took  your  mortgage  on  St.  Peter's  was  it  not  on 
leased  ground  and  not  on  ground  in  fee  ?  A.  My  impression  is, 
and  I  think  that  I  am  right,  that  our  mortgage  was  upon  the 
church  edifice  and  the  lots  upon  which  it  stood,  which  were  in 
fee.  I  think  the  leased  lots  to  which  Mr.  Beach  referred  in  his 
testimony,  were  not  the  lots  included  in  our  mortgage. 

Q.  Was  not  your  mortgage  made  to  extend  over  seven  other 
lots  previously  held  under  lease?    A.  I  don't  recollect. 

Q.  If  it  was  so  made,  was  not  your  security  increased  by  this 
arrangement?    A.  Undoubtedly  it  was. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  landed  endowments  made  to  otner 
churches  since  1814, by  Trinity  Church?    A.  I  du  not. 


$8  [Senate 

Q.  Are  the  churches  of  the  Good  Shepherd  and  St.  John  the 
Baptist,  feeble  churches  ?  A.  They  are  ;  the  annual  allowance, 
I  see  by  the  report,  is  $200  each.  The  church  of  St.  John  the 
Baptist  has  been  otherwise  largely  aided  lately  by  Trinity  Church. 

Q.  Is  Grace  church,  Brooklyn,  a  feeble  church  ?  A.  I  should 
hardly  say  they  were  now. 

Q.  Is  St.  Luke's  church,  New-York  a  feeble  church?  A.  It 
is,  it  could  not  be  sustained  but  for  the  aid  of  Trinity. 

Q.  What  is  the  annual  allowance  to  Grace  church,  Brooklyn  ? 
A.  The  church  report  says  it  is  $1,000.  The  explanation  is, 
that  when  Grace  church  was  built  we  granted  them  an  aid  to 
build  the  church  of  $15,000,  payable  annually  in  sums  of  $1,000; 
and  this  is  not  yet  wholly  paid.  The  $1,000  annually  reported 
is  in  payment  of  it. 

4 

Q  Is  the  church  of  the  Good  Shepherd  or  St.  John  the  Bap- 
tist more  feeble  churches  than  St.  Luke's?  A.  It  is  almost 
impossible  for  me  to  say  as  to  the  comparative  feebleness  with- 
out the  statements  of  the  churches,  upon  which  we  pass  upon 
their  applications.  St.  Luke's  church  is  upon  the  property  of 
Trinity  Church,  and  in  the  immediate  neighborhood  of  our  ten- 
ants. Trinity  has  set  aside  ground  near  there  for  the  purpose  of 
building  a  chapel,  when  we  can  afford  it ;  until  we  can  do  so  we 
have  felt  ourselves  obliged  to  sustain  St.  Luke's  church  as  the 
church  for  that  district. 

Q.  Is  the  church  of  the  Good  Shepherd  a  more  feeble  church 
than  St.  Luke's  ?    A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  What  do  you  pay  annually  to  St.  Luke's,  according  to  the 
report  of  Trinity  church?  A.  $2,200.  I  presume  there  is  some 
explanation  that  might  be  given  in  this  case  also. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  there  is  any  legal  obstacle  to  the  col- 
lection of  church  mortgages,  if  the  church  is  so  disposed  ?  A. 
I  believe  there  is  no  legal  obstacle;  but,  if  we  should  attempt 
to  foreclose  one,  it  would  create  such  a  clamor  that  we  would 
never  hear  the  last  of  it. 


No.  95.J 


89 


Q.  Were  you  in  the  vestry  with  Mr.  Wolf  and  Mr.  Cyrus 
Curtiss?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  the  vestry  of  Trinity  church  consider  themselves 
acting  for  the  Episcopalians,  generally,  in  New-York,  or  acting 
as  such  for  Trinity  church  parish  1  A.  For  Trinity  church 
parish. 

Q.  These  grants  that  you  refer  to,  were  they  made  as  dona- 
tions of  the  property  of  Trinity,  or  as  property  held  in  trust  for 
the  benefit  of  all  the  churches'?  A.  They  were  made  as  the 
property  of  Trinity  church. 

Q  Do  you  think  the  income  of  Trinity  church  was  greater  in 
1810  or  1812  than  it  is  now  1  A.  We  were  much  richer  then  in 
lands,  but  I  don't  know  about  our  income. 

Q.  WThile  in  the  vestry,  did  you  know  of  all  expenditures, 
ecclesiastical  or  otherwise  1  A.  There  were  no  expenses  except 
such  as  were  authorised  by  the  vestry,  and  I  had  the  same  oppor- 
tunity of  knowing  them  as  others. 

Q.  Have  there  been  any  expenses,  to  your  knowledge,  for 
other  than  charitable,  religious  and  benevolent  purposes  1  A. 
None  others  than  such  as  were  necessary  in  the  case  of  so  large 
a  property. 

Examination  by  counsel  for  Trinity  Church. — Gulian  C.  Ver- 
planckj  called  and  sworn  : 

Q.  Are  you  a  member  of  the  Vestry  of  Trinity  Church,  and 
how  long  have  you  been?  A.  I  am  a  member  of  the  Vestry, 
and  have  been,  since  1814,  whether  elected  at  the  annual  elec- 
tion of  1844,  or  to  fill  a  vacancy,  I  do  not  recollect ;  about  12 
years. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  a  member  of  Trinity  Church  ? 
A.  I  was  a  corporator  and  pew-holder  as  early  as  1811,  but  have 
not  been,  continuously,  since  that  time. 

Q.  Did  members  of  other  congregations  vote  at  the  vestry 
elections  of  Trinity  Church,  prior  to  1814 1  A.  I  think  not,  for 
the  reason  which  I  will  state.    At  the  first  election  at  which  I 


90 


[Senate 


voted,  which  was  in  1812,  there  was  an  excitement  growing  out 
of  a  parish  question,  the  contest  between  two  eminent  clergy- 
men, Dr.  Hobart  and  Mr.  Jones,  which  brought  out  the  full  vote, 
or  nearly  so,  of  the  electors  entitled  to  vote  for  wardens  and 
vestry,  there  being  two  tickets  for  the  respective  parties.  I 
had  strong  feelings  for  one  of  these,  and  voted  for  one  of  the 
tickets.  I  confidently  believe,  that  no  votes,  other  than  those 
of  pew-holders  or  communicants  of  Trinity  Church  and  her 
chapel,  were  received,  and,  that  two  or  three  others  only,  who 
were  pew-holders  or  communicants  in  other  churches,  were  ten- 
dered and  refused.  This  general  recollection  of  my  own,  has 
been  recalled  and  confirmed,  so  as  to  give  me  great  confidence 
in  it,  by  the  inspection  of  nearly  contemporary  documents,  sta- 
ting that  fact. 

Q.  Has  any  suit  ever  been  brought,  or  proceeding  instituted, 
to  establish  the  right  of  a  member  of  any  other  church,  to  vote 
at  the  vestry  elections  of  Trinity  Church  %  A.  I  have  never 
heard  of  any  such  suit  or  proceeding,  and  I  think  there  can 
have  been  none,  because  from  my  after  connection  with  the 
church,  as  a  vestryman  and  an  occasional  inspector  of  annual 
elections,  I  think  I  must  have  heard  of  such  suit  or  proceeding, 
if  any  such  had  taken  place. 

Q.  Has  any  member  of  any  other  church,  not  a  pew-holder 
or  communicant  in  Trinity  Church,  voted  at  the  vestry  elec- 
tions of  Trinity  Church,  since  1814?  A.  I  believe  never,  unless 
under  some  mistake.  I  have  heard  of  a  vote  being  offered,  and 
rejected  on  that  ground  ;  I  know  it  from  the  papers  of  the  day. 

Q.  Has  the  act  of  1814  been  acquiesced  in,  by  other  churches 
in  the  city  of  New-York?  A.  I  think  so,  practically,  as  it  so 
rarely  happened,  that  a  vote  was  ever  tendered  on  any  ground, 
but  that  of  being  a  corporator  of  Trinity,  or  a  communicant  or 
pew-holder.  I  recollect  but  one  instance,  there  may  have  been 
a  second,  allowing  for  some  absence  from  the  city  and  country. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  standing  committee  1 
A.  Never. 

Q.  Have  you  had  free  access  to  the  books,  papers  and  accounts 
of  the  office  ?   A.  Perfectly  so.    Whenever  I  desired  a  book  or 


No.  95.] 


91 


paper  I  was  shown  it,  and  I  frequently  had  and  used  opportuni- 
ties of  examining  important  books  without  asking  the  officers, 
from  the  publicity  with  which  the  minutes  and  other  papers 
were  kept  in  the  office. 

Q.  What  induced  you  in  making  such  examinations  ?  A. 
Sometimes  general  curiosity  and  a  wish  to  know  and  be  quali- 
fied to  act  upon  the  questions  which  came  before  us.  I  have, 
at  times,  also  examined  more  particularly,  and  even  had  state- 
ments made  for  the  use  of  the  vestry,  on  my  resolution,  for  the 
purpose  of  knowing  the  true  financial  state  of  the  corporation  of 
which  so  many  vague  notions  were  entertained. 

Q.  Were  you  chairman  of  the  Trinity  chapel  building  com- 
mittee ?  A.I  was  chairman  of  a  committee  of  inquiry  into  the 
matter  of  location,  cost  of  construction,  and  again,  chairman  of 
building  committee,  one  of  which  was  for  the  plan  most  re- 
sembling the  one  adopted;  it  was  a  plan,  the  estimated  cost  of 
which  was  about  §80,000.  This  did  not  include  the  price  of 
land,  and  I  do  not  recollect  whether  it  included  the  organ.  The 
actual  cost  of  the  chapel  is  more  than  $200,000,  exclusive  of 
land.  I  am  not  as  precise  as  I  should  be,  because  there  are 
certain  expenses  of  a  recent  building  of  a  gallery,  which  I  have 
not  seen  and  cannot  now  give. 

Q.  What  was  the  cause  of  the  excess  of  the  cost  of  that 
chapel  above  the  estimates  ?  A.  The  chapel  was  not  built  by 
contract,  except  for  particular  objects,  such  as  the  delivery  of 
stone,  but  was  built  under  the  direction  of  an  architect  by  clay's 
work.  One  cause,  forming  a  considerable  portion  of  the  extra 
expense,  was  delay  in  building  from  weather  and  non-delivery 
of  material,  &c,  during  which  time  there  was  a  great  and  rapid 
rise  in  labor  and  material.  Another  and  also  large  increase 
arose  from  causes  familiar  to  all  who  have  had  experience  in 
constructing  public  or  private  buildings,  by  which  persons  hav- 
ing the  charge  of  buildings  have  attempted  to  enlarge  and  vary 
their  plans.  Having  had  some  personal  experience  on  public 
works  as  a  committee-man,  from  the  capitol  at  Washington 
down,  as  well  as  on  private  works,  I  find  it  to  be  very  common. 
A  third  cause  is  an  error  in  estimate  in  two  or  three  expensive 


[Senate 


items  ;  the  cost  of  foreign  stone  for  the  lining  of  the  chapel, 
which  much  exceeded  our  estimate.  I  was  very  much  vexed  at 
the  result,  and  regretted  the  excess. 

Q.  What  have  you  to  say  with  regard  to  the  appropriations 
made  to  St.  Luke's  church?  A.  St.  Luke's  church  was  consid- 
ered, by  myself  and  other  members  of  the  vestry,  in  a  double 
relation.  First,  as  it  stood  to  us,  in  the  relation  of  a  great  land 
holder,  to  provide  for  our  own  tenants,  and  improve  our  own 
property,  amongst  which  St.  Luke's  stood.  Secondly,  as  a  con- 
siderable, and  poor  congregation.  I  knew  the  character  of  the 
congregation  chiefly  from  an  intimate  friend,  who  has  olten 
spoken  of  Linsley  as  the  only,  or  almost  the  only  person  of 
means,  who  could,  or  did  do  anything  for  the  pecuniary  support 
of  the  church.  We  also  looked  to  keeping  the  congregation 
together,  with  the  view  of  transferring  it,  in  some  form  or  other, 
to  the  location  on  Hudson-street  burial  ground,  reserved  for  that 
purpose.  I  have,  on  those  grounds,  voted  cheerfully,  and 
expressed  my  approbation  of  all  such  temporary  allowances  as 
were  thought  necessary  to  keep  up  the  church.  The  precise 
amount  recommended  I  have  had  nothing  to  do  with,  leaving  it 
to  the  judgment  of  the  committee. 

Q.  What  do  you  say  as  to  the  alleged  control  of  the  standing 
committee'?  A.  On  some  subjects,  it  is  necessarily  great— as  to 
the  valuation  of  property,  and  the  terms  on  which  property 
should  be  sold — they  being  familiar,  from  long  and  daily  expe- 
rience with  the  value  of  our  property  in  detail.  On  other 
points,  such  as  allowances  or  gifts  to  churches,  the  vestry  form 
their  own  judgment,  and  frequently  refer  matters  back  to  them 
for  reconsideration;  sometimes,  and  in  important  matters,  reject- 
ing their  report,  and  making,  or  refusing  grants,  in  opposition 
to  their  recommendation.  A  case  in  point  has  just  been  referred 
to  us  for  examination.  It  is  that  of  the  church  known  as  St. 
John  the  Baptist,  a  donation  to  which,  the  standing  committee 
had  reported  against,  and  which,  after  full  consideration  and 
debate,  was  granted,  nearly  to  the  amount  asked. 


No.  95.]  93 

Q.  State  whether,  in  your  judgment,  the  funds  of  Trinity 
Church  have  been  judiciously  applied  1  A.I  believe  they  have 
been  always  applied  with  an  honest  intention.  With  great  res- 
pect for  the  memories  of  our  predecessors  in  office,  I  think  now, 
and  have  before  very  often  expressed  the  opinion,  that  the  early 
policy  of  Trinity  Church  was  erroneous  in  making  large  endow- 
ments for  churches  which  became  filled  with  wealthy  and  fash- 
ionable people,  and  did  not  provide  for  the  wants  of  the  body  of 
the  Episcopalians  of  the  city  of  New-York.  I  think  the  present 
policy,  founded  on  experience,  is  far  wiser;  by  the  present 
policy  I  mean  aid  to  poorer  congregations  in  New- York  and 
elsewhere,  in  the  form  ol  stipends  or  money  grants,  and  espe- 
cially in  providing  for  the  religious  and  other  education  of  the 
poor  in  our  own  churches.  I  will  also  add  the  accommodation 
of  many  others,  who  cannot  literally  be  called  poor;  young 
clerks,  for  instance,  who  could  not  provide  themselves  with 
hired  pews. 

Q.  Is  it  true  that  the  grants  of  Trinity  Church  have  been 
made  in  a  partial  or  partizan  spirit,  as  regards  a  higt  n  church 
or  "  low "  church  views  ?  A.  I  have  never  observed  any 
evidence  of  it,  and  have  never  felt  it  myself  in  any  vote,  I  can 
say  with  a  clear  conscience. 

Q.  What  have  you  to  say  on  the  subject  of  free  churches? 
A.  I  have  taken  great  interest  in  them;  was  among  the  foun- 
ders of  the  City  Mission,  a  donor  and  occasionally  a  solicitor  of 
donations.  I  have  been  Vice  President  of  the  City  Mission,  and 
understand  I  now  am.  I  have  been  disappointed  in  the  results 
of  purely  free  churches,  which  I  fear  can  hardly  get  along  with- 
out an  endowment.  I  think  the  best  and  largest  example  of  a 
practical  without  a  nominal  free  church,  is  the  parish  church  of 
Trinity.  In  this  there  are  a  limited  number  of  pew-holders 
mixed  with  a  much  larger  bodv,  forming  a  large  congregation, 
who  need  free  accommodations.  It  is  practically  a  free  church, 
because  with  congregations  of  from  five  hundred  to  fifteen  hun- 
dred, I  perceived  just  before  I  left  town,  from  an  accidental 
inspection  of  the  list  of  pews,  that  the  actual  receipts  from  the 
pews  of  Trinity,  for  the  year  ending    n  May,  1S56,  was  $157. 


94 


I  Senate 


At  St.  Paul's  the  sum  collected  was  $280,  for  the  same  period. 
I  will  add  that  my  personal  knjwledge  is  of  Trinity,  where  I 
attend  with  considerable  regularity  about  half  the  year.  The 
operation  of  St.  Paul's  resembles  that  of  Trinity. 

Q.  What  have  you  to  say  as  to  the  value  of  property  of  Trinity 
church,  and  the  mode  of  valuation  in  its  report?  A.  I  had  no 
hand  in  making  out  the  report  made  to  the  Senate  of  the  value 
of  their  property,  but  I  think  that  no  other  mode  of  estimation 
than  that  of  the  sworn  assessors  could  have  been  made  and 
agreed  upon.  This  arises,  in  my  judgment,  from  the  church 
interest  being  a  reversionary  property,  falling  in  at  different  pe- 
riods, with  comparatively  a  small  income.  As  to  the  most  valu- 
able and  saleable  property  in  the  lower  part  of  the  city,  which 
has  recently  risen,  even  since  the  making  of  the  report,  the  high 
prices  chiefly  for  commercial  purposes,  my  own  experience  and 
observation  convince  me  that  it  is  impossible  to  calculate  with 
any  reasonable  ground  of  reliance  as  to  its  reversionary  value 
for  six,  eight  and  ten  years,  and  longer  periods  ahead.  I  speak 
both  from  observation  and  experience  on  this  subject.  I  have 
been  a  member  of  monied  institutions,  which  lend  on  mortgage, 
in  the  city  of  New-York;  such  as  the  Life  and  Trust  Company. 
I  have  observed  the  great  fluctuations  and  fall  of  value  in  parts 
of  the  city,  such  as  Pearl-street,  Hanover  Square.  I  have  ex- 
amined many  bonds  and  mortgages  of  this  character  while  in. 
quiring  into  the  value  of  property.  I  have  myself  had  the 
management  and  control  of  property  in  Stone-street,  Pins-street, 
&c,  which  in  1835-36,  was  of  great  value,  but  has  now  fallen 
one-half,  or  nearly  one-half  its  value  at  that  time,  owing  to  the 
transition  of  certain  branches  of  commercial  business  from  that 
locality  to  Broadway,  and  the  streets  adjoining  it.  I  could  not, 
therefore,  myself,  as  the  same  occurrence  may  take  place,  esti- 
mate a  high  reversionary  value  ten  or  fifteen  years  hence,  from 
present  prices.  The  Astor  lease,  forming  a  large  portion  of  the 
property  of  the  chuch,  falling  in  in  ten  years,  is  a  mere  rever- 
sionary property,  producing,  at  present,  only  $269  per  annum. 
Such  property,  when  offered  in  large  amounts  at  a  time,  would 
not,  probably,  command  the  bids  or  offers  of  any  but  capitalists 


No.  95.J 


95 


expecting  to  purchase  at  a  low  rate,  and  except  under  very  favo- 
rable circumstances,  would  hardly  bring  its  reversionary  value, 
calculated  on  the  assessed  value,  and  perhaps  not  so  much.  I 
form  that  judgment  with  the  full  knowledge  that  where  the  pro- 
perty is  not  encumbered  with  a  lease,  it  might  sell  for  more  than 
the  assessed  value.  For  these  reasons,  I  think  the  assessed  value 
the  only  one  that  the  church  could  properly  give,  or  the  vestry 
have  probably  agreed  upon. 

7  o'clock,  P.  M. 

Gulian  C.  Verplanck's  testimony  continued. 

Q.  Will  you  state  what  appropriations  have  been  made  by 
Trinity  Church  to  institutions  of  charity  in  addition  to  those  that 
have  been  already  named'?  A.  I  may  possibly  not  know  all 
that  have  been  named,  but  I  understand  no  mention  has  been 
made  of  the  annual  appropriation  to  the  church  of  the  Deaf 
Mutes,  which  consists  of  the  whole  annual  rent  of  the  church 
used,  and  also  a  stipend,  I  believe,  of  $300  or  more.  I  think  the 
rent  is  $500.  Another  stipend  is  a  charity  rather  than  a  church 
donation,  to  a  minister,  the  Rev.  Mr.  Cook,  the  German  mission- 
ary at  Ward's  island  and  in  the  city  among  German  emigrants, 
I  think  the  allowance  is  $300.  I  suppose  I  may  add,  as  there 
has  been  an  allusion  to  it  in  a  previous  question,  that  he  is  a  "  low  " 
churchman;  and  I  never  have  known  of  any  objection  being  made 
to  the  motion  I  make  every  year  for  the  appropriation.  A  similar 
annual  donation,  which  I  mention  as  falling  within  my  own 
knowledge  as  emigrant  commissioner,  is  that  of  Rev.  Mr.Winslow, 
Protestant  chaplain  for  the  Quarantine  hospital,  given  for  other 
services  to  emigrants  landing  at  Castle  Garden,  in  relation  to 
their  concerns  both  temporal  and  spiritual.  St.  Luke's  hospital 
receives  substantially  from  Trinity  Church  the  grounds  on  which 
the  hospital  is  built,  now  of  great  value,  which  took  effect  within 
a  year  or  two.  It  was  in  this  way  :  Trinity  Church  had  some 
years  ago  granted  to  the  corporation  of  the  city,  apiece  or  square 
of  ground  to  be  used  as  a  market,  and  on  that  condition,  at  the 
foot  of  Duane-street.  A  hospital  and  church  for  British  emigrants 
called  the  church  and  hospital  of  St.  George  the  Martyr,  had 


96 


| Senate 


been  projected  and  in  part  carried  into  effect  ;  expecting  to  collect 
sufficient  funds  here  and  in  England,  they  wanted  a  piece  of 
ground,  spacious  and  convenient  enough  for  a  hospital  building, 
they  applied  to  Trinity  for  a  grant  for  this  purpose.  Trinity  had 
no  lands  suitable  for  it,  and  it  was  doubted  whether  they  had 
present  means  to  enable  them  to  buy  ;  about  the  same  time,  how- 
ever the  market  at  the  foot  of  Duane-street  having  been  given  up, 
the  question  was  presented  whether  we  had  not  the  right  to  re- 
enter and  claim  our  property  at  the  foot  of  Duane-street.  The 
vestry  were  advised  that  they  could  do  so,  and  I  suppose  cor- 
rectly, but  some  friends  of  the  proposed  hospital  suggested  that 
the  unpleasantness  of  a  suit  against  the  corporation  would  be 
avoided,  and  a  great  good  obtained  by  negociation,  if  the  cor- 
poration would  grant  a  certain  suitable  location  to  that  hospital, 
high  up  on  the  Fifth-avenue,  the  vestry  releasing  to  the  city 
corporation  their  rights  in  the  Duane-street  lot,  which  the  city 
authorities  were  desirous  of  selling  for  a  large  amount  to  the 
Erie  railroad.  This  was  carried  into  effect,  the  vestry  relin- 
quishing, for  that  purpose,  their  right  to  a  property  of  great 
value,  worth  perhaps  $40,000.  The  institution  of  St.  George 
the  Martyr,  failing  for  some  reason,  St.  Luke's  was  substituted 
in  its  place,  and  the  property  was  transferred  to  St.  Luke's  hos- 
pital, Trinity  church  formally  joining  therein.  I  consider  that 
the  property  was  therefore  obtained  by  St.  Luke's  hospital  by 
means  of  a  grant  from  Trinity  Church;  the  title  was  obtained 
from  the  corporation  of  New- York,  the  real  consideration 
thereof  being  the  land  released  by  Trinity  Church,  and  sold  for 
a  large  sum  to  the  Erie  railroad.  Our  last  assent  to  the  trans- 
fer to  St.  Luke's  was  given  within  a  few  years  past. 

Q.  State  whether  there  is  any  order  of  the  vestry  prohibiting 
free  access  to  the  list  of  corporators'?  A.  There  is  no  order  to 
that  effect;  the  superior  officers  have  never  refused  to  my  know- 
ledge any  one.  I  cannot  say  what  the  clerks  may  have  done. 
The  books  lie  in  places,  open  all  day  at  least,  and  the  one  con- 
taining the  pew-holder  corporators  is  in  the  outer  office,  where 
pew  rents  are  collected,  and  frequently  examined  by  any  one  I 
think  who  has  the  curiosity.    The  book  containing  the  list  of 


No.  95.] 


97 


communicant  corporators  is  kept  in  an  inner  office  on  an  open 
desk;  I  never  knew  the  examination  of  it  refused. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  of  the  old  Episcopal  church 
charters  in  this  State,  granted  in  the  same  terms  as  that  of  Trinity 
church?  A.  The  old  form  of  holding  church  property  before 
the  revolution,  was  the  rector,  wardens,  and  inhabitants  of  the 
town,  or  city  in  which  it  was,  in  communion  of  the  church  of 
England.  Several  of  these  were  altered  to  conform  to  the  new 
state  of  things  after  the  revolution,  retaining  their  own  name, 
except  modified  as  to  the  church  of  England.  Trinity  church 
was,  by  a  special  act;  St.  Peter's,  Albany,  was  so  modified;  the 
church  with  which  I  have  been  long  connected,  in  Fishkill, 
Dutchess  county,  holds  its  burial  ground  and  buildings  under  a 
title  in  the  same  form.  It  reincorporated  itself  under  a  general 
act,  passed  in  1797,  and  its  corporate  title  is,  u  the  rector,  war- 
dens and  inhabitants  of  Fishki  1,  in  communion  of  the  Protestant 
Episcopal  church."  There  are  two  other  Episcopal  churches, 
which  have  been  established  for  more  than  twenty  years,  in  the 
same  township,  but  they  have  never  claimed,  either  the  property 
or  the  rignt  to  vote. 

By  the  committee. — Q.  If  the  lots  to  St.  Luke's  hospital  were 
given,  or  considered  by  the  church  their  property  to  give,  why 
were  they  omitted  in  their  report  made  in  1856  ?  A.  I  presume 
for  the  reasons  already  stated,  that  they  were  not  directly  given, 
but  substantially  so,  and  therefore,  requiring  a  long  explanation, 
and  deeming  it  impossible  to  state  it  briefly  in  an  account  or 
abstract. 

Q.  Did  not  the  city  corporation  insist  that  Trinity  had  no 
right  to  those  Duane-street  lots  1  A.  I  do  not  know  that  they 
ever  insisted ;  but  we  were  legally  advised  that  our  right  of  re- 
entry was  perfect;  and  those  who  represented  the  corporation 
were  willing  to  make  the  arrangement  I  have  mentioned,  and  to 
receive  our  formal  release. 

Q.  Did  the  city  corporation  dispute  your  right  to  the  lots  ? 
A.  It  may  have  been  verbally  denied  by  counsel  or  officers,  but 


[Senate,  No.  95.] 


7 


98  [Senath 

they  were  sufficiently  satisfied  of  our  right  to  give  a  valuable 
property  for  the  release  of  our  right,  as  we  regarded. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  look  at  the  book  of  corporators  kept  in  the 
inner  office  ?  A.  Yes  I  have  looked  at  it  in  order  to  see  if  per- 
sons were  not  entitled  to  be  entered  as  corporators  who  were 
omitted  through  their  own  negligence  or  indifference,  and  I 
believe  there  were  many  such. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  look  at  the  cash  book  or  book  of  original 
entries  t  A.  I  have  not,  never  having  had  occasion  to  do  so, 
and  never  having  audited  any  accounts  except  those  of  the 
chapel  building. 

i 

Q.  Did  you,  as  a  member  of  the  vestry,  know  and  approve  of 
he  form  of  the  lease  of  pews  in  Trinity  chapel,  at  its  opening  1 

A.  I  did  know  of  it,  and  did  not  approve  of  it,  because  I 
considered  it  a  measure  cf  over  prudence,  calculated  to  expose 
us  to  misrepresentation  and  perhaps  to  give  offence.  The  motive 
of  those,  however,  who  carried  it  through,  was  that  of  precau- 
tionary prudence  against  the  intrusion  of  a  body  of  pew-holders 
who  had  no  sympathies  with  us  or  any  other  church.  It  was 
recommended  by  a  committee  and  approved  by  a  majority  of  the 
vestry.  It  was  repealed  betore  it  could  have  any  practical 
effect. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  churches  set-off  from  Trinity  Church 
since  1814  I    A.  None  have  been. 

Q.  Do  you  find  any  difficulty  in  getting  at  the  value  of  your 
property  when  you  sell  or  lease  ?  A.  We  are  happily  in  a  situ- 
ation not  to  be  obliged  to  sell  or  lease  until  we  get  offers,  and  it 
is  then  a  subject  of  negotiation  with  our  officers  or  committees, 
of  which  I  am  not  one. 

Q.  Is  there  any  difficulty  in  getting  at  the  fair  value  of  your 
property,  when  it  is  in  a  condition  to  sell,  or  to  lease?  A 
When  the  lease  has  expired,  there  is  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  appropriations  by  Trinity  Church, 
for  other  than  charitable,  religious,  or  educational  purposes  ? 


No.  95.] 


99 


A.  In  the  management  of  so  large  a  property,  there  may  be 
many  miscellaneous  purposes  which  I  cannot  mention  in  detail, 
for  instance  j  patriotic  purposes,  of  which  I  mention  three  in- 
stances, involving  some  expense,  not  discreditable  to  the  church. 
In  Trinity  churchyard,  were  interred  the  remains  of  the  late 
Gallant  Capt.  Lawrence,  whose  memory  is  perpetuatad  by  his 
last  words  "don't  give  up  the  Ship."  A  monument  has  been 
erected  to  his  memory,  at  public  expense,  badly  built,  though 
well  meant,  and  for  40  years  it  had  fallen  into  decay.  It  was 
rebuilt  at  the  expense  of  the  church,  in  suitable  and  permanent 
style,  retaining  its  former  inscription.  A  similar  instance  within 
my  memory,  was  the  restoring  and  repairing  of  the  monument, 
covering  the  remains  of  Alexander  Hamilton.  A  third  instance, 
is  the  monument  now  erecting,  on  the  remains  of  revolutionary 
soldiers,  buried  in  the  western  part  of  Trinity  churchyard. 
The  monument  of  Gen.  Montgomery  in  front  of  St.  Paul's,  and 
in  the  church,  has  been  repaired  and  improved.  I  presume 
that  the  erecting  of  a  monument,  creditable  as  a  work  of  art, 
to  the  late  Bishop  Hobart,  can  hardly  be  considered  as  coming 
within  the  term,  charitable,  or  religious.  There  are  others  in 
the  management  of  the  real  estate,  which  any  other  large  land- 
holder would  pay. 

By  the  Counsel  for  Trinity  Church : 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  improper  appropriation  of  the  funds 
of  the  Church  ]    A.  I  know  of  none  for  improper  purposes. 

Q.  Have  any  churches  offered  to  be  set  off  from  Trinity,  since 
1814]    A.  None. 

The  Committee,  by  request,  put  the  following  question  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  or  have  you  been  informed,  whether  Trinity 
Church  has  recently  had  any  person  employed  as  counsel  or 
otherwise,  belonging  or  attached  to  the  judicial,  executive  or 
legislative  department  of  the  State  government]  A.  I  do  not 
know  of  any,  and  I  add  that  from  my  position  on  committees  of 
a  legal  and  executive  character  other  than  the  financial  and 
standing  committee,  I  must  have  known  it  any  such  person  had 
been  employed  now  or  for  some  years  past  ;  and  I  therefore  say, 


100 


[Senate 


that  the  church  has  employed  no  person  now  in  the  judicial,  ex- 
ecutive or  legislative  department.  I  was  recently  asked,  whether 
a  certain  person  coming  within  that  description  had  been  re- 
tained, and  I  at  once  answered,  "  No."  Except  those  who  now 
appear  before  you  professionally  on  this  examination,  there  is  no 
person  employed  in  this  matter  except  Mr.  De  Zeng,who  openly 
appears  as  our  agent. 

Adjourned  to  10  A.  M.,  Monday. 


Monday,  February  23,  1857. 
Present :   Senate  committee.     Messrs.  Spencer,  Noxon  and 
Ramsey,  for  Trinity  Church  ;  Judge  Parker  and  0.  Meads,  Esq., 
Counsel. 

Gen.  John  A.  Dix,  called  and  sworn.  Examined  by  counsel 
for  Trinity  Church  : — Q.  Will  you  state  generally  the  facts 
within  your  knowledge  in  regard  to  the  charges  made  against 
the  vestry  of  Trinity  Church  ?  A.  About  ten  days  ago  I  was 
subpoenaed  to  attend  the  committee  as  a  witness  ;  being  occu- 
pied with  important  business,  and  fearing  I  should  be  unable  to 
attend  before  the  labors  of  the  committee  were  closed,  I  prepar- 
ed a  communication  addressed  to  the  chairman  of  the  committee? 
and  sent  it  by  Mr.  Livingston,  last  week.  The  session  of  the 
committee  having  been  extended  beyond  my  expectations  at  that 
time,  I  thought  it  proper  to  appear  before  them  in  person.  I 
have  this  communication  with  me,  and  if  the  committee  will 
permit  me  to  read  it,  I  think  it  will  save  them  a  good  deal  of 
time  in  preparing  questions,  and  myself  a  good  deal  of  incon- 
venience in  writing  out  answers. 

The  committee  assented  to  the  reading  of  the  communication 
in  answer  to  the  foregoing  question,  which  is  as  follows  : 

I  have  just  seen  and  read  the  report  made  to  the  Senate  on  the 
29th  ult.,  by  the  committee  of  which  you  are  chairman,  together 
with  the  testimony  appended  thereto;  and  as  there  are  imputa- 
tions therein  derogatory  to  the  character  of  the  vestry  of  Trinity 
church,  of  whom  I  am  one,  both  as  regards  their  fairness  and 


No.  82. | 


101 


their  discreetness  in  the  execution  of  their  trust,  I  ask  leave  to 
submit  to  the  committee  the  following  statement :  Business  of  a 
very  urgent  nature,  affecting  the  interests  of  others,  which  I 
should  be  inexcusable  for  neglecting,  prevents  me  from  visiting 
Albany.  I  should  otherwise  have  appeared  before  the  com- 
mittee, and  asked  them  to  take  my  testimony  orally,  instead  of 
soliciting  their  indulgence  so  far  as  to  allow  me  to  present  it  in 
the  form  of  a  written  communication. 

I  was  appointed  a  vestryman  in  the  autumn  of  1849,  and  have 
served  in  that  capacity  to  the  present  time.  With  the  exception 
of  ten  months  in  1854  and  1855,  during  which  I  was  absent  from 
the  country,  and  occasional  temporary  absences  from  the  State 
at  other  times.  I  have  attended  with  a  good  deal  of  regularity 
the  meetings  of  the  vestry,  and  have  taken  a  somewhat  active 
part  in  its  proceedings, 

I  do  not  propose  to  trouble  the  committee  with  any  discussion 
of  the  legal  rights  of  the  corporation  under  the  original  grants, 
by  which  it  holds  its  property,  or  the  legislative  enactments  by 
which  its  corporate  powers  have  been  confirmed  or  enlarged. 
Nor  do  I  intend  to  offer  to  the  committee  any  opinion  with  re- 
gard to  the  true  interpretation  of  those  enactments  or  grants. 
The  sole  object  of  this  statement,  which  is  made  on  my  own 
responsibility,  is  to  present  such  explanations  as  seem  to 
me  necessary  to  exonerate  myself  and  my  associates  from 
charges  which  have  been  brought  against  us  by  some  of  the  wit- 
nesses, and  which  do  us,  as  I  conceive,  great  injustice. 

I  beg  leave  to  say  further,  with  perfect  respect  for  the  com- 
mitteee,  and  the  body  by  which  it  was  appointed,  that  in  pre- 
senting this  statement  I  have  not  overlooked  the  vital  relation 
which  an  inquiry  instituted  by  one  branch  of  the  Legislature, 
through  the  action  of  a  committee,  into  the  administration  of 
the  internal  affairs  of  a  religious  corporation,  bears  to  the  rights 
of  every  ecclesiastical  body  in  the  State,  I  do  not  admit  the 
existence  of  such  an  authority  as  has  been  exercised  in  regard 
to  the  body  with  which  I  am  connected,  more  especially  when 
carried  so  far  as  to  solicit  ex  parte  opinions  concerning  the 
motives  under  which  individuals  may  have  been  supposed  to 


102  [Senate 

act.    And  I  cannot  but  think,  when  the  question  is  deliberately 

considered,  that  it  will  be  found  to  possess  a  most  important 
bearing  upon  the  rights  of  conscience,  which  it  was  one  of  the 
leading  objects  of  the  Constitution  to  secure;  a  question  well 
worthy,  under  this  aspect,  of  the  most  serious  public  regard. 
If  I  have  chosen  to  meet,  with  a  reservation  of  rights,  which  I 
deem  inviolable,  the  imputations  cast  upon  me  and  my  asso- 
ciates, instead  of  passing  them  by  in  silence,  it  is  in  order  that 
the  minds  of  the  committee,  the  Legislature,  and  the  community 
may  not  be  misled  by  the  testimony  in  which  those  imputations 
are  contained. 

Soon  after  my  connexion  with  the  vestry  commenced,  my 
attention  was  attracted  to  the  financial  condition  of  the  corpo- 
ration, which  seemed  to  me  very  unsatisfactory.  Its  debt 
amounted  to  nearly  half  a  million  of  dollars,  and  by  reason  of 
the  large  donations  it  was  in  the  habit  of  making  to  other 
churches  its  revenue  had  become  inadequate  to  its  expenditures, 
and  the  annual  deficits  were  made  up  by  a  sale  of  property.  I 
regarded  this  practice,  though  founded  upon  a  generous  con- 
sideration for  the  wants  of  other  parishes,  and  a  desire  to  pro- 
mote the  advancement  of  the  interests  of  the  Episcopal  church 
in  the  city  and  the  State,  as  opposed  to  all  sound  prin- 
ciples of  finance.  No  fund  or  endowment  can  long  withstand 
a  regular  consumption  of  its  principal.  Encumbered  as  the 
church  property  was  by  leases,  it  could  rarely  be  sold  in  any 
considerable  parcels,  without  serious  sacrifice;  and  it  was  my 
opinion  that  the  contributions  of  the  church,  instead  of  being 
enlarged  should  be  curtailed,  that  its  debt  should  not  be  in- 
creased, that  its  expenditures  should,  if  possible,  be  brought  within 
its  income,  and  that  its  property  should,  as  a  general  rule,  be 
preserved  until  the  expiration  of  its  leases,  when  it  could  be 
sold  without  loss;  thus  leaving  the  church  in  condition  to  carry 
out  with  vigor  and  success  the  great  plan  of  ministration,  which 
seemed  to  me  to  be  clearly  marked  out  by  changes  in  progress 
in  the  distribution  of  business  and  population  throughout  the 
city. 

In  accordance  with  these  views,  when  it  was  decided  to  build 
a  chapel  in  the  upper  part  of  the  city,  in  order  to  preserve  to 


No.  95.]  103 

the  church  its  ancient  parishioners,  who  had  removed  in  large 
numbers  from  the  neighborhood  of  Trinity  church,  and  St. 
Paul's,  and  St.  John's,  I  introduced  a  resolution  providing  that 
the  corporate  debt  should  never  exceed  the  sum  of  two  hundred 
and  fifty  thousand  dollars  beyond  the  amount  of  its  bonds  and 
mortgages,  exclusive  of  those  given  by  churches.  The  latter 
were  excepted  for  the  reason  that  they  have  never  been  regarded 
as  an  available  resource.  No  interest  is  collected  on  them,  and 
they  are,  in  fact,  held  by  the  corporation  for  the  purpose  of 
preventing,  in  case  of  emergency,  the  property  to  which  they 
attach,  from  being  devoted  to  secular  uses.  The  resolution 
referred  to,  after  being  amended  so  as  to  increase  the  limit  of  the 
debt  to  three  hundred  thousand  dollars,  was  adopted. 

It  is  due  to  entire  frankness  to  say,  that  I  was  opposed  to  the 
construction  of  Trinity  chapel,  believing  the  private  wealth  of 
the  district,  for  which  its  ministrations  were  designed,  suffi- 
cient to  furnish  them  without  the  aid  of  Trinity  church.  At 
the  same  time,  there  were  arguments  in  favor  of  the  measure, 
on  the  score  of  justice  and  practical  usefulness,  which  it  was 
not  easy  to  answer,  and  solicitations  from  old  and  faithful  friends 
of  the  church,  who  had  removed  to  the  upper  part  of  the  city, 
too  earnest  and  persuasive  to  be  resisted  by  the  vestry,  many  of 
whom  had  been  their  associates  from  an  early  period  in  life,  and 
who  were  naturally  reluctant  to  dissolve  the  connection  as  they 
approached  its  close. 

The  measure  having  been  resolved  on,  the  vestry  adopted  a 
plan,  which  the  architect  estimated  to  cost  forty  thousand  dol- 
lars. I  urged  its  adoption,  on  the  ground  of  its  comparatively 
small  cost,  and  I  particularly  pressed  on  the  vestry  the  conside- 
ration that  in  the  principal  parish  church  enough  had  been  done 
by  them  for  the  embellishment  of  the  architecture  of  the  city. 
At  a  subsequent  meeting,  a  majority  of  the  vestry,  deeming  the 
proposed  edifice  too  small,  or  perhaps  too  plain  for  the  position 
it  was  to  occupy,  adopted  another  plan,  estimated  by  the  archi- 
tect to  cost  seventy-nine  thousand  dollars.  It  was  never  intended 
by  the  vestry  to  exceed  that  sum.    But  those  who  have  had  any 


104  [Senate 

experience  in  building  churches,  know  not  only  how  little  confi- 
dence is  to  be  placed  in  such  estimates,  but  how  difficult  it  is  to 
adhere  to  original  designs;  and  they  will  be  disposed  to  consider 
the  vestry,  who  ultimately  found  themselves  involved,  greatly 
to  their  disappointment  and  annoyance,  in  an  expenditure  of 
two  hundred  and  thirty  thousand  dollars,  for  the  chapel  and 
site,  as  objects  of  sympathy  rather  than  censure. 

This  unlooked  for  expenditure,  and  the  continued  annual 
contributions  to  other  parishes,  which  the  vestry  were  unwilling 
to  abridge,  have  carried  the  corporate  debt  up  to  the  enormous 
sum  of  six  hundred  and  sixty-eight  thousand  dollars;  exceeding, 
by  the  sum  of  $469,000,  its  available  bonds  and  mortgages. 

It  is  well  known  that  the  greater  part  of  the  city  below  Cham- 
bers-street is  devoted  to  purposes  of  business,  and  that  private 
dwellings  have  given  place  to  stores  and  warehouses.  The 
wealthy  portion  of  the  population  has  gone  to  the  upper  dis- 
tricts, and  most  of  the  churches  of  air  denominations  have 
followed  them.  The  North  Dutch,  which  is  still  engaged  in 
useful  spiritual  labors  in  the  neighborhood  of  St.  Paul's;  the 
Methodist  church  in  John-street,  unhappily  rent  by  internal 
strife;  and  St.  Peter's,  a  Roman  Catholic  church  on  Barclay- 
street,  still  maintain  their  ground.  With  these  exceptions,  Trinity 
church,  St.  Paul's  and  the  church  in  Beekman-street,  formerly 
St.  George's,  purchased  and  now  entirely  supported  by  Trinity, 
stand  alone  in  this  great  deserted  field  of  labor.  The  same  pro- 
cess is  going  on  above  Chambers -street;  and  in  a  few  years  there 
will,  in  all  probability,  be  no  churches  below  Canal-street,  but 
those  of  Trinity  parish.  Notwithstanding  this  exodus  of  wealth j 
a  vast  population,  the  inhabitants,  in  great  part,  of  alleys,  gar- 
rets and  cellars,  estimated  to  exceed  one  hundred  and  twenty 
thousand  souls,  occupy  the  field.it  has  abandoned;  and  if  Trinity 
church  had  followed  the  same  instincts,  which  have  drawn  off 
the  other  religious  societies  of  the  city  to  its  more  attractive 
districts,  if  she  also  had  abandoned  to  their  fate  the  poor  and 
necessitous,  whom  wealth  and  fashion  have  bequeathed  to  her, 
the  lower  part  of  the  city  would  have  presented  an  example  of 
religious  destitution  unparalleled  in  the  history  of  Christian 
civilization. 


No.  95.J 


105 


It  was  in  view  of  this  great  change  in  the  condition  of  the 
population  of  the  city  that  I  introduced  into  the  vestry  on  the 
10th  April,  185 the  following  resolutions: 

Resolved,  That  the  standing  committee  be  instructed  to  report 
a  plan  by  which  the  expenditures  of  the  corporation  shall  be 
limited  to  its  income. 

Resolved,  That  the  said  committee  be  instructed  to  inquire 
into  the  expediency  of  making  the  seats  in  Trinity  Church  and 
in  St.  Paul's  and  St.  John's  chapels  free. 

Resolved,  That  the  said  committee  be  instructed  to  inquire  into 
the  expediency  of  establishing  free  schools  in  connexion  with 
Trinity  Church  and  its  chapels. 

Resolved,  That  the  said  committee  be  instructed  to  inquire 
into  the  expediency  of  devoting  the  funds  of  the  corporation,  as 
far  as  may  be  practicable,  after  making  provision  for  the  sup- 
port of  the  new  chapel  in  25th-street,  to  the  education  and  reli- 
gious instruction  of  the  poor  of  the  city. 

The  last  resolution,  as  originally  presented,  was  confined  to 
the  poor  of  the  city  below  Canal-street,  and,  on  the  suggestion  of 
a  member  of  the  vestry,  it  was,  in  view  of  future  contingen- 
cies, amended  so  as  to  embrace  the  whole  city. 

This  is  the  plan  which,  nearly  four  years  ago,  I  deemed  it  my 
duty  to  bring  before  the  vestry.  It  was  supported  by  a  some- 
what labored  argument,  which  was  not  committed  to  paper,  and 
which  I  will  not  tax  the  patience  of  the  committee  by  attempt- 
ing to  recall  to  remembrance.  I  trust,  indeed,  that  no  such  ex- 
position is  necessary,  and  that  the  resolutions  sufficiently 
explain  their  purpose.  Their  design  was  to  rescue  the  lower 
part  of  the  city — that  portion  which  has  not  only  an  im- 
mense body  of  resident  poor,  but  which  receives  into  its 
bosom  the  geater  part  of  the  destitute,  who  seek  a  refuge  here 
from  hardship  in  other  countries — to  rescue  this  combined  mass 
of  permanent  and  temporary  indigence  from  the  utter  spiritual 
abandonment  with  which  it  was  threatened  by  the  removal  of 
those  to  whose  wealth  and  liberality  it  had  been  accustomed  to 


106 


[Senate 


look  for  sympathy  and  pecuniary  aid,  to  more  congenial  districts. 
The  plan  comprehended  not  only  the  spiritual  instruction  of  the 
adult  inhabitants  of  this  deserted  district — once  the  seat  of  near- 
ly all  the  wealth  of  the  city — but  the  education  of  their  chil- 
dren, and,  to  the  extent  of  the  means  of  the  corporation,  a  min- 
istration to  their  temporal  wants.  Trinity  Church,  with  its 
endowments,  fortunately  growing  more  valuable  with  the  pro- 
gress of  the  city,  was  to  stand  in  the  place  of  the  individual  opu- 
lence, which  has  fled  from  a  district  where  its  tastes  could  no 
longer  find  suitable  fields  for  indulgence,  and  established  itself 
in  others,  where  it  has  rivaled  Genoa  in  its  streets  of  palaces, 
and  where  in  all  its  appointments  and  manifestations  of  indoor 
and  outdoor  life,  there  is  a  concentration  of  refinement,  luxury 
and  splendor  unequalled,  excepting  by  a  few  of  the  great  capi- 
tals of  Europe. 

It  is  possible  that  I  may  have  looked  upon  this  plan  with  that 
undue  partiality  which  individuals  are  apt  to  feel  for  sugges- 
tions originating  with  themselves.  But  it  has  seemed  to  me  to 
have  been  among  the  designs  of  Providence  that  Trinity  Church 
should  have  been  planted  in  this  great  district,  ready,  with  her 
ample  endowments,  to  make  provision,  when  the  emergency 
should  arrive,  for  those  whom  individual  wealth  has  left  upon 
her  hands.  I  hold  this  to  be  the  great  mission  of  Trinity  Church, 
and  I  have  pressed  on  the  vestry,  on  all  proper  occasions,  the 
duty  of  preparing  for  it,  and  of  commencing  the  work  with  the 
utmost  diligence.  Though  the  plan  has  not  been  formally 
adopted,  it  has  been  practicilly  acted  on;  and  it  is  due  to  my 
associates  in  the  vestry  to  say,  that  they  have  responded  to  all  ap- 
peals in  behalf  of  the  destitute  districts  below  Canal-street,  by  as 
liberal  an  expenditure  as  the  income  of  the  corporation,  crippled 
by  a  heavy  debt,  and  burdened  by  large  annual  contributions  to 
other  churches,  has  admitted.  The  clerical  force  of  the  parish  has 
been  nearly  doubled;  the  Sunday  schools  have  greatly  enlarged; 
parish  schools  for  the  gratuitous  education  of  children  have  been 
established;  by  far  the  greater  part  of  the  pews  in  Trinity  Church, 
one  hundred  and  four  out  of  one  hundred  and  forty -four  in  St. 
Paul's,  and  a  large  number  in  St.  John's,  have  been  made  free; 


No.  95.] 


107 


efforts  have  been  put  forth  to  bring  into  the  church  those,  who 
have  not  been  accustomed  to  attend  any  religious  worship; 
Trinity  Church  is  opened  twice  every  day  throughout  the  year, 
for  divine  service;  a  mission  office  has  been  established  to  re- 
ceive applications  for  aid;  lay  visitors  are  employed  to  seek  out 
want  and  relieve  it;  missionary  agencies  have  been  instituted  in 
connection  with  the  Commissioners  of  Emigration;  the  whole 
lower  part  of  the  city  has  been  virtually  made  a  field  of  mis- 
sionary labor;  and  a  degree  of  energy  has  been  infused  into  the 
ministrations  of  the  churchy  temporal  and  spiritual,  which 
compensates,  in  a  great  degree,  for  the  lost  support  of  the 
religious  societies  removed  to  other  districts.  In  the  midst  of 
all  this  earnest  effort,  with  five  of  her  clergy  residing  within 
this  neglected  field  of  labor,  conversant  with  little  else  than 
its  destitution,  and  devoting  themselves  to  the  relief  of  its 
wants,  Trinity  Church  finds  herself  assailed,  as  faithless  to  her 
trust,  by  those,  for  the  most  part,  whose  lives  are  passed  amid 
the  social  amenities  of  the  upper  districts,  and  in  an  atmosphere 
redolent  of  indulgence  and  luxurious  ease. 

It  was  not  supposed  by  me,  when  this  plan  was  brought  for- 
ward, that  it  could  be  fully  carried  out,  until  a  considerable 
portion  of  the  leased  property  of  the  church  should  become 
available  for  the  purpose.  It  was  only  expected  that  a  begin- 
ning should  be  made,  and  that  the  plan,  in  its  great  outlines, 
should  have  a  practical  adoption.  However  earnest  the  desire 
to  put  it  in  operation  at  an  earlier  period,  the  unexpected  aug- 
mentation of  her  debt,  not  only  renders  such  a  desire  hopeless, 
but  manifests  that  it  may  be  even  further  postponed,  or  pos- 
sibly defeated,  without  a  prudent  husbandry  of  her  resources. 

For  the  better  illustration  of  this  point,  I  annex  a  statement 
of  the  revenue  and  ordinary  expenditures  of  the  corporation,  for 
the  year  ending  the  30th  April,  1856. 


Revenue. 


1.  From  ground  rents  of  real  estate 

2.  "    pew  rents  

3.  "    interest  on  bonds  and  mortgages 

4.  "    Trinity  Church  Cemetery  


$67,359  53 
6,998  50 
13,259  40 
4,155  92 


$91,773  36 


108 


[Senate 


Expenditures. 

1.  Parish  expenditures,  including,  (besides  those  obviously 
such)  charges  upon,  and  expenses  of  management  and  care  of 
the  property  of  the  church,  necessary  diocesan  expenses, 
and  annuities  to  families  of  deceased  clergymen,  or  to  officers 
of  the  parish,   $71,344  22 

2.  Interest  on  debt,   36,522  15 

3.  Allowances,  donations,  and  loans  to  other 
churches,    32,052  42 

$139,918  79 

Deduct  revenue,   91,773  36 

And  there  is  a  deficit  of   $48,145  43 

for  the  year  ending  30th  April,  1856. 

The  receipts  and  expenditures  for  the  year  ending  30th  April, 
1857  were  estimated  on  1st  May  last,  at  $40,638.66.  The  grants 
actually  made  by  the  corporation,  to  clergymen  and  churches  to 
be  paid  during  the  year,  in  addition  to  the  regular  allowances, 
amount  to  $11,640,  and  the  appropriations  for  building  school- 
houses,  and  renovating  and  enlarging  St  John's  chapel  to  $28,- 

000,  making  together   $39,640  00 

Deduct  cash  on  hand  1st  May,  1856,   10,016  38 

$29,623  62 

Add  estimated  deficiency,   40,638  66 

And  there  will  be  a  deficit  of   70,262,28 

for  the  year  ending  the  30th  April,  1857. 

This  defiicit  can  only  be  made  by  selling  real  estate.  The 
deficits  for  the  last  ten  years,  exceed  two  hundred  and  seventy 
thousand  dollars,  and  the  Corporation  has  provided  for  them, 
by  selling  lots,  and  applying  the  proceeds  to  the  augmentation 
of  her  insufficient  income.  While  she  is  assailed  as  niggardly 
in  her  donations,  and  as  engaged  in  a  systematic  accumulation 
of  her  capital,  she  has  in  fact,  for  years,  been  selling  her  real 
estate,  and  meeting  wTith  the  proceeds,  the  pressing  demands  on 
her,  a  large  portion  of  which,  have  grown  out  of  her  contribu- 
tions for  the  support  of  other  churches. 


No.  95.] 


109 


The  estimated  expenditure  of  the  present  year  continued  till 
1862,  would  consume  so  much  of  the  Lispenard  lease,  which  be- 
comes disencumbered  in  that  year  and  embraces  a  large  and 
valuable  part  of  her  real  estate,  as  to  leave  her  a  balance  insuf- 


ficient to  pay  her  debt,  which  is  now   §668,813  00 

This  debt  may  be  reduced  by  mortgages   199,469  00 

To  the  sum  of  ,   469,344  00 

Add  deficits  of  $70,278.66  for  five  years,   351,311  40 

And  there  will  be  the  sum  of   $820,655  40 


to  be  provided  for  by  sales  of  real  estate  ;  a  sum  exceeding  the 
highest  estimate  in  the  report  of  the  committee  of  the  value  of 
the  Lispenard  lease;  and  unless  the  prices  of  real  estate  become 
greatly  enhanced  during  the  next  five  years,  nothing  will  remain 
of  the  lease  referred  to,  after  discharging  the  pecuniary  obliga- 
tions above  specified,  a  portion  of  which  must  be  provided  for  by 
sale  of  other  property. 

The  expenditures  of  the  parish  cannot  be  materially  abridged 
without  prejudice  to  its  interests  ;  and  the  vestry  are  unwilling 
to  reduce  the  annual  allowances  to  other  churches,  believing  that 
such  a  reduction  would  cause  great  inconvenience  to  the 
recipients,  and,  in  some  cases,  impair  to  a  serious  extent  the 
efficiency  of  the  parishes  thus  assisted. 

In  regard  to  the  necessity  of  allowing  the  capital  of  her  en- 
dowment to  be  consumed  by  the  current  expenses  of  the  church, 
I  have  differed  in  opinion  with  a  majority  of  the  vestry.  While 
they  have  deplored  it  and  yielded  to  it  as  a  necessity,  I  have 
been  in  favor  of  meeting  it  by  retrenchment,  and  bringing  down 
the  expenditure,  as  nearly  as  may  be,  to  the  standard  of  the  in- 
come. I  have  urged  this  duty  on  the  vestry  as  one  demanded 
by  every  maxim  of  financial  prudence,  and  with  the  less  reluc- 
tance as  the  inconvenience  to  result  from  it  would  be  of  short 
duration  ;  for  if  the  real  estate  disposable  in  1862,  or  the  great 
mass  of  it,  can  be  kept  undiminished  until  that  time,  the  church 
will  be  in  a  condition  to  prosecute  the  great  plan  of  ministra- 
tion she  has  entered  on,  with  an  efficiency  which  cannot  fail  to 


110 


[Senate 


produce  results  of  the  highest  importance  to  the  city  and  the 
State.  If  I  have  thought  the  vestry  in  error  in  this  respects, 
it  is  not  b  "cause  I  have  considered  them  lacking  in  liberality, 
but  because  they  have  yielded  under  impulses  highly  honorable  to 
their  feelings,  to  an  outside  pressure  for  contributions,  which,  in 
view  of  the  deep  and  lasting  interests  involved  in  the  question,  I 
would  have  resisted. 

This  is,  in  truth,  the  only  ground  of  apprehension  in  regard 
to  the  success  of  the  plan  of  religious  instruction  for  the  poor  in 
the  lower  part  of  the  city.  It  must  utterly  fail  if  Trinity  Church , 
for  the  purpose  of  meeting  a  regular  series  of  annual  deficits  in 
her  revenue,  caused  to  a  great  extent  by  her  contributions  to 
other  churches,  shall  consume  her  real  estate  ;  and  for  this 
reason  I  would  incur  a  temporary  inconvenience  for  the  purpose 
of  carrying  out  a  great  system,  the  benefits  of  which  would  be 
incalculable  in  value  and  endless  in  duration. 

To  hold  her  real  estate  until  it  is  unencumbered  and  can  be  sold 
without  sacrifice,  is  in  no  just  sense,  an  accumulation  of  capital. 
To  accumulate,  is  to  augment  by  a  reinvestment  of  income,  or  in 
other  words,  to  convert  revenue  into  principal.  If  hei  income 
exceeded  her  necessary  expenditures,  if,  instead  of  contributing 
it  to  the  wants  of  others  she  were  to  withhold  it,  and  use  it  for 
the  augmentation  of  her  capital,  she  would  be  fairly  obnoxious 
to  the  imputation  cast  upon  her.  Instead  of  erring  in  this  di- 
rection she  has,  as  has  been  shown,  been  for  a  series  of  years 
expending  large  portions  of  the  principal,  and  mainly  for  the  pur- 
pose of  making  donations  to  other  parishes. 

In  proof  of  this  position,  I  submit  the  following  statement  of  the 
receipts  and  expenditures  of  the  corporation  for  the  last  10  years, 
with  the  annual  deficits  of  income  and  the  allowances,  donations 
and  loans  to  other  churches.  I  have  prepared  it  from  the  books  of 
the  corporation,  and  it  has  been  examined  and  compared  by  Mr. 
Dunscombe,  the  comptroller,  and  myself,  with  a  general  state- 
ment of  the  financial  afYairs  of  the  church  for  the  same  period 
made  by  Mr.  Roach,  an  experienced  accountant,  and  I  believe 
it  to  be  in  all  respects  correct. 


No.  05.J  111 

Year  ending  30th  April, \%±7. 

Revenue,   $68,498  47 

Expenditure,   94,791  93 

Deficit,   $26,293  46 

Allowances  to  other  parishes,   $10,825  00 

Donations,   5,134  00 

Loans,   500  00 

Total  allowances,  &c,   $16,559  00 

Year  ending  SOth  April,  1848. 

Revenue,   $74,258  54 

Expenditure,   95,984  28 

Deficit,     $21,725  74 

Allowances  to  other  parishes,   $10,175  00 

Donations,   7,800  50 

Loans,   3,900  00 

Total  allowances,  &c,  $21,875  50 

Year  ending  30th  April,  1849. 

Revenue,  .   $78,869  85 

Expenditure,   88,096  79 

Deficit,   $9,226  94 

Allowances  to  other  parishes,   $12,600  00 

Donations,   4,889  14 

Loans,   3,800  00 

Total  allowances,  &c   $21,289  14 

Year  ending  30th  April,  1850 

Revenue,   $77,799  63 

Expenditure,  >   95,741  11 

Deficit,   $17,941  48 


112  [Senate 

Allowances  to  other  parishes,   §13,000  00 

Donations,   4,705  18 

Loans,   12,198  00 

Total  allowances,  &c   $29,903  18 

Year  ending  30th  Jlpril,  1851. 

Revenue,    $75,871  31 

Expenditure,                                        ,   100,233  44 

Deficit,   $24,362  13 

Allowances  to  other  parishes,   $13,683  00 

Donations,    4,488  13 

Loans,   9,377  00 

Total  allowances,  &c   $27,548  13 

Year  ending  30th  April,  1852. 

Revenue,   $77,979  77 

Expenditure,   108,317  39 

Deficit,   $30,337  62 

Allowances  to  other  parishes,   $14,715  00 

Donations,  .    12,806  72 

Loans,                        .   7,650  00 

Total  allowances,  &c   $35,171  72 

Year  ending  30th  April ,  1853. 

Revenue,    $86,073  97 

Expenditure,   110,592  66 

Defiicit,   $24,518  69 

Allowances  to  other  parishes,,   $16,785  00 

Donations,   9,186  21 

Loans,   7,700  00 

Total  allowances,  &c   $33,671  21 


No,  95. J  113 


t 

Year  ending  30M  April,  1854. 

Revenue,      $85,710  53 

Expenditure, ,  ,   137,078  99 

Deficit   |513368  46 


Allowances  to  other  parishes,   $21,706  00 

Donations,   6,916  26 

Loans,     17,100  00 

Total  allowances,  fcc    $45,722  26 


Year  ending  30th  ApriL  1855. 

Revenue,  $95,195  72 

Expenditure,   114,677  30 

Deficit,   $19,677  30 


Allowances  to  other  parishes,   $15,058  33 

Donations  do    7,290  16 

Loan*  do    2,000  00 

Total  allowances,  &c,  $24,348  49 


Year  ending  oi)th  April.  1856. 

Revenue,  $91,773  36 

Expenditure,   139,918  79 

Deficit,  .  $48,145  43 


Allowances  to  other  parishes,  $15,500  00 

Donations  do    10,552  42 

Loans  do    6,000  00 

Total  allowances,  &c,  $32,052  42 


[Senate,  No.  95. J  *  8 


114 


| Senate 


Recapitulation 

Deficits. 

1347,   $26,293  46 

1848,   21,725  74 

1849,   9,226  94 

1850,   17,941  48 

1851,   24,362  13 

1852,  ,0.   30,337  62 

1853,   24,518  69 

1854,   51,368  46 

1855,   19,677  30 

1856,   48,145  43 

$273,597  25 


Allowances,  <tc. 

$16,559  00 
21,875  50 
21,289  14 
29,903  18 
27,548  13 
35,171  72 
33,671  21 
45,722  26 
24,348  49 
32,052  42 


$288,141  05 


Analysis  of  Allowances,  &>'c. 

Allowances.  Donations.  Loans. 

1847,   $10,825  00    $5,134  00    $600 

10,175  00    7,800  50    3,900 

12,600  00    4,889  14    3,800 


1848, 
1849, 
1850, 
1851, 
1852. 
1853, 
1854, 
1855, 
1856, 


13,000  00 


4,705  18 


12,198 


13,683  00    4,488  13    9,377 

14,715  00    12,806  72    7,650 

16,785  00    9,186  21    7,700 

21,706  00    6,916  26   17,100 

15,058  33    7,290  16    2,000 

15,500  00    10,552  42  .... 


6,000 


$144,047  33 


Allowances, 


$73,768 

72 

144,047 

33 

217,816 

05 

70,325 

00 

|288,141 

05 

$70,325 


By  this  statement,  it  appears  that  the  deficits  of  revenue  in 
the  last  ten  years  amount  to  $273,597.35,  and  the  amount  given 
away  and  contributed  to  the  support  of  other  parishes  is 
$288,141.05,  exceeding  the  aggregate  deficit  by  the  sum  of 


No.  95.] 


115 


$15,573.80:  and,  as  I  have  already  said,  the  whole  deficit  of  the 
ten  years,  incurred  for  the  benefit  of  others,  has  been  made  up 
by  a  sale  of  real  estate,  and  is  to  that  extent,  a  consumption  of 
principal. 

Several  of  the  witnesses  have  testified  that,  in  granting  aid  to 
other  churches,  the  vestry  have  acted  under  the  influence  of 
party-feeling,  refusing  assistance  to  those  who  differ  with  them 
in  opinion,  and  granting  it  freely  to  those  whose  views  are  in 
accordance  with  their  own 

I  feel  it  to  be  my  solemn  duty  to  repel  this  imputation,  by 
stating  my  own  experience.  I  have  been  more  than  seven  years 
a  member  of  the  vestry,  and  have  been  on  terms  of  the  most 
unreserved  and  confidential  communication  with  my  associates. 
I  have  discussed  with  them  the  propriety  of  granting  and  declin- 
ing applications  for  aid,  not  only  at  nearly  all  the  meetings  of 
the  vestry,  but  in  many  cases  in  private  interviews;  and  no 
reference  has  ever  been  made  by  me  or  by  any  one  of  them,  at 
any  meeting,  official  or  private,  to  the  party  views  of  any  of  the 
rectors,  or  religious  societies  presenting  such  applications.  The 
party  divisions,  which  have  existed  for  several  years  in  the  Epis- 
copal church,  and  which  have  not  only  impaired  its  capacity  for 
doing  good,  but  dishonored  those  on  both  sides  who  have  been 
active  in  keeping  them  alive,  have  never  been  a  subject  of  dis- 
cussion at  any  meeting  of  the  vestry  which  I  have  attended;  nor 
have  they  been  alluded  to  in  connexion  with  applications  for 
aid.  I  have  taken  a  deep  interest  in  several  applications  myself, 
and  have,  perhaps,  had  some  influence  in  securing  grants  of 
money  to  the  applicants,  and  in  no  instance  have  I  inquired 
what  were  the  particular  views  of  the  rector  of  the  parish  to 
which  they  belonged.  I  do  not  even  know  to  this  day  whether 
they  are  high  church  or  low  church.  The  only  inquiries  ever 
made  were  in  regard  to  their  pecuniary  and  social  condition  and 
their  need  of  assistance ;  and  these  considerations,  together  with 
the  ability  of  Trinity  Church  at  the  time  to  make  the  grants 
asked  for,  and  the  probability  that  the  grants  would  be  effective 
for  the  objects  in  view,  have  been  the  only  ones  which  have 
guided  me  in  my  votes.    I  believe  the  other  members  of  the 


116 


[Senate 


vestry  have  been  equally  free  from  the  influence  of  party 
motives.  My  belief  is  founded  upon  my  knowledge  of  them  as 
enlightened,  conscientious,  and  liberal  men,  and  upon  all  they 
have  said  and  done  in  my  presence  through  a  familiar  associa- 
tion of  seven  years.  I  cannot  be  supposed  to  have  been  deceived 
in  regard  to  their  principles  of  action,  but  upon  the  hypothesis 
of  a  depth  of  dissimulation  on  their  part  and  an  obtuseness  of 
perception  on  my  own,  too  gross  for  the  largest  credulity. 

I  can  say  with  the  same  confidence,  that  I  do  not  believe  those 
who  have  the  management  of  the  affairs  of  Trinity  Church,  have 
sought,  during  the  period  of  my  connection  with  them,  a  period 
of  a  good  deal  of  excitement,  to  influence  rectors  or  parishes  on 
any  question  in  the  diocese  through  the  instrumentality  of  her 
donations.  It  is  due  to  others  to  add,  that  I  have  for  several 
years  attended  the  conventions  of  the  diocese  and  become  ac- 
quainted with  a  large  number  of  the  clergy,  I  have  rarely 
met  a  more  intelligent  or  independent  body  of  men  ;  and  I 
regard  the  intimation  that  they  would  be  governed  in  the  doc- 
trines they  teach  or  in  the  oflicial  acts  they  have  to  perform,  by 
considerations  arising  out  of  the  pecuniary  aid  their  parishes  may 
have  received  from  Trinity  Church,  as  alike  ungenerous  and 
unjust.  In  a  word,  I  consider  all  these  imputations  of  influence 
on  the  one  hand  and  of  subserviency  on  the  other,  as  the  offspring 
of  mere  groundless  suspicion  ;  and  they  are  in  some  instances  so 
loosely  hazarded,  as  to  make  it  the  part  of  charity  to  refer  them 
to  the  same  narrow  and  distempered  views  of  duty,  which  are 
falsely  imputed  to  the  vestry  of  Trinity. 

I  have  thus  laid  before  the  committee,  with  entire  frankness, 
d  statement  of  my  connection  with  Trinity  Church,  and  the  part 
I  have  borne  in  the  management  of  her  financial  affairs,  and  the 
great  scheme  of  religious  and  temporal  ministration,  which  I 
desire  to  see  carried  out  under  her  auspices  and  through  the  aid 
of  her  endowments,  in  the  lower  districts  of  the  city.  I  do  not 
believe  the  importance  of  giving  effect  to  this  plan  can  be  over- 
stated. The  funds  of  Trinity  Church  are  the  only  resource  for 
accomplishing  it  ;  she  must  execute  it  or  it  will  fall  to  the 
ground,  and  the  district  in  which  three  of  her  church  edifices 


No.  95.] 


117 


stand,  become  nearly  desolate  for  all  spiritual  purposes.  The 
prosperity  of  the  city  is  deeply  involved  in  it;  destitution,  tem- 
poral and  spiritual,  goes  hand  in  hand  with  crime ;  and  when  even 
now  the  spirit  of  acquisitiveness  which  is  characteristic  of  the 
age  and  has  become  its  greatest  scourge,  is  dishonoring  it  by 
forgeries  the  most  bare-faced  and  staining  it  by  murders  the 
most  foul,  what  shall  be  our  social  condition  if,  in  a  large  por- 
tion of  the  city,  destitution  and  spiritual  neglect  shall  combine 
with  cupidity,  to  arm  the  hand  of  violence  and  stimulate  it  to 
still  grosser  outrage.  What  higher  office  can  Trinity  Church 
fulfill,  what  higher  benefit  can  she  confer  on  the  classes  which 
have  the  deepest  stake  in  the  security  of  property  and  life,  than 
by  devoting  herself,  as  she  is  now  doing,  to  make  the  lessons 
of  religious  and  social  duty  familiar  to  those  who,  under  the 
pressure  of  their  physical  wants,  have  the  strongest  temptation 
to  forget  them  ? 

In  the  upper  districts  the  possessors  of  nearly  the  whole 
private  wealth  of  the  city  have  become  domesticated.  There 
is  more  than  one  congregation,  the  individual  possessions  of 
which  are  believed  to  exceed  in  value,  with  the  largest  esti- 
mate ever  put  on  it,  the  entire  property  Trinity  Church  holds, 
for  the  support  of  her  four  congregations.  Those,  whom  fortune 
has  thus  overburdened  with  her  gifts,  should  be  willing  to  leave 
unimpaired,  the  endowments  of  Trinity  Church,  that  she  may 
make  suitable  provision  for  the  poor,  whom  they  have  left  to 
her  care;  and,  whatever  may  be  the  narrowness  of  spirit,  which 
presides  over  particular  circles,  no  doubt  is  entertained,  of  the 
generous  and  catholic  feeling  which  pervades  the  great  body  of 
the  opulent  classes.  No  city  has  more  cause  to  be  thankful  for 
the  munificence  with  which  some  of  her  richest  men  have  con- 
tributed to  the  great  objects  of  social  improvement  within  her 
limits  :  and  it  is  most  gratifying  to  add,  that  in  more  than  one 
instance,  the  wealth  which  exists  in  the  largest  masses,  has  been 
poured  out  with  the  noblest  profession,  to  build  up  literary  and 
charitable  institutions  for  the  common  benefit.  To  such  a  spirit 
of  munificence,  no  appeal  to  relieve  the  destitution  which  hangs 
upon  the  outskirts  of  the  upper  districts,  need  be  addressed  in 


118 


| Senate 


vain.  If  among  those,  to  whom  providence  has  committed  the 
spiritual  guidance  of  these  favored  classes,  there  are  any,  who 
seek  to  compel  Trinity  Church  to  scatter  her  endowments  broad- 
cast, over  the  city,  and  thus  disqualify  herself  for  the  great  work 
of  charity  devolved  on  her,  in  the  district,  in  which  her  lot  has 
been  cast  ;  it  there  are  any,  who  are  engaged  in  inculcating  an 
antiphonal  beneficence,  the  utterances  of  which,  are  to  be  given 
only  in  response  to  those  of  Trinity,  it  is  suggested,  with  the 
profoundest  deference,  whether  a  nobler  field  for  the  exercise  of 
their  influence,  does  not  lie  directly  before  them.  Whether  the 
great  ends  of  their  calling,  will  not  be  better  subserved  by  la- 
boring to  infuse  into  surrounding  atmospheres,  over-cast  with 
penury  and  want,  some  of  the  golden  light,  which  irradiates 
their  own. 

The  State,  nay,  the  whole  country,  has  a  deep  interest  in 
this  question.  The  city  of  New-York,  embodying  as  she  does,  to 
a  great  extent,  the  commercial  and  financial  power  of  the  Union, 
must  exert  a  sensible  influence  upon  the  moral  and  intellectual 
character  of  all,  with  whom  she  is  brought  into  association. 
The  slightest  agitations  on  her  surface,  undulate  in  all  directions 
to  the  gTeat  circumference,  of  which  she  is  the  centre.  On  Tri 
nity  Church  are  devolved,  in  the  order  of  events,  the  spiritual 
instruction  and  guidance  of  the  district,  by  which  she  is  brought 
most  directly  into  contact  with  all  that  lies  beyond  her  limits. 
If  this  duty  is  not  faithfully  performed,  no  voice  should  be 
raised  in  palliation  of  the  delinquency.  On  the  other  hand,  if 
any  of  those,  who  have  withdrawn  from  this  part  of  the  city, 
the  wealth,  which  Providence  has,  in  such  disproportion, 
bestowed  on  them,  shall  seek  to  deprive  the  destitute,  when 
they  have  left  behind,  of  their  sole  resource  for  spiritual  in- 
struction and  the  alleviation  of  their  temporal  wants  ;  if  they 
shall  succeed  by  mis-stating  the  condition,  and  unjustly  im- 
peaching the  motives  of  Trinity  Church,  in  defeating  her  efforts 
to  carry  out  the  great  system  of  labor  with  which  she  is  occu- 
pied, they  will  incur  the  gravest  and  the  most  odious  of  all  re- 
sponsibilities, that  of  consigning  one  of  the  most  important  dis- 
tricts in  the  emporium  of  the  Union,  to  an  intellectual  and  spi- 
rifeial  death, 


No.  95.  j 


119 


By  the  Senate  committee  : 

Q.  Were  not  Mr.  Curtiss  and  Mr.  Wolf  in  the  vestry  of  Trinity 
Church  ?  A.  I  think  that  Mr.  Wolf  ceased  to  be  a  member  of 
the  vestry  before  I  became  a  member  of  it.  Mr.  Curtiss  is  now 
a  member  of  the  vestry. 

Q.  Would  not  they  be  as  likely  to  understand  the  affairs  of 
the  vestry  as  other  members  of  it  ?  I  think  they  have  the  same 
opportunities  that  other  members  of  the  vestry  have. 

Q.  Do  you  or  do  you  not  know  that  the  church  reported  in 
1854,  the  church  mortgages  as  part  of  her  capital?  A.  I  do 
not  know;  as  I  have  stated  in  my  communication,  I  was  out  of 
the  country  during  part  of  the  years  1854-55. 

Q.  Are  there  not  free  schools  provided  in  New- York  for  all 
classes  ?    A.I  understand  there  are,  by  the  State. 

Q.  If  the  vestry  of  Trinity  had  adopted  the  first  plan  proposed 
for  building  Trinity  chapel,  at  a  cost  of  $40,000,  would  not  their 
debt  have  been  now  less  by  nearly  $200,000?  A.  If  the  plan 
had  been  adhered  to,  and  had  cost  no  more  than  the  architect 
estimated,  a  much  less  sum  than  $230,000  would  have  been  ex- 
pended on  the  chapel  and  site.  In  the  cost  of  $230,000  is  the 
expense  of  site.  Whether  the  debt  of  the  corporation  would 
have  been  less  now,  of  course,  I  cannot  say. 

Q.  Do  you  not  consider  that  the  estate  of  Trinity  Church  is  now 
of  much  greater  value  than  at  any  previous  period  1  A.  That 
question  I  cannot  answer.  I  am  not  a  member  of  the  finance 
committee,  and  therefore  am  not  acquainted  with  the  details  of 

the  value  of  property. 

Q.  Do  you  or  do  you  not  know  that  there  have  been  applica- 
tions to  the  Legislature  for  the  repeal  of  the  law  of  1814  ?  A.  I 
am  not  aware  of  any  such  application. 

Q.  Were  you  acquainted  with  the  proceedings  of  the  vestry 
in  respect  to  the  valuation  of  the  St.  John's  Park  property  ? 
A.  I  was  not  present  at  the  first  meeting  when  that  subject  was 
brought  belore  the  vestry,    I  was  present,  I  think,  at  the  meet 


120 


| Senate 


mg  at  which  that  subject  was  discussed.  My  impression  is,  that 
the  vestry  at  first  refused  to  entertain  the  proposition  at  all;  but 
at  the  earnest  solicitation  of  nearly  all  the  owners  around  the 
park,  they  finally  agreed  to  release  their  interest  if  they  could 
receive  the  sum  of  $400,000.  I  never  understood  this  to  be  con- 
sidered as  the  value  of  the  property,  but  rather  as  the  increase 
of  the  damage  that  would  be  done  to  Trinity  Church  by  destroy- 
ing the  park.  This  was  my  own  view  of  the  subject,  and  I  con- 
sidered the  interest  of  Trinity  Church  so  remote  and  contingent 
that  I  would  not  have  undertaken  to  put  a  valuation  upon  it  in 
money. 

Q.  Were  you  acquainted  with  the  making  of  the  report  of 
Trinity  Church,  in  February,  1856  ?  A.  No,  sir.  1  was  out  of 
the  State. 

Q.  Have  you  stated  in  your  written  testimony  what  amount 
Trinity  Church  pays  to  Bishop  Potter  as  his  salary?  A.  The 
amount  is  embraced  in  the  aggregate  expenditure,  but  is  not 
specified. 

Q.  Will  you  please  to  state  it  I  A.  I  think  it  is  $1,600.  Mr. 
Minturn  and  Mr.  Bradish,  wrho  were  members  ot  the  committee 
with  myself,  appointed  by  the  convention  of  the  diocese,  for  the 
purpose  of  apportioning  the  Bishop's  salary  among  the  churches 
of  the  diocese,  thought  Trinity  Church  should  pay  a  larger  sum  ; 
and  I  think  on  the  ground  of  her  endowment. 

Q.  From  what  you  know  of  the  value  of  real  estate  in  the 
city  of  New-York,  would  you  not  think  that  the  property  of 
Trinity  Church  is  increasing  in  value?  A.  I  have  no  doubt  it  is.*> 

Q.  I  perceive  by  the  report  of  Trinity  Church,  that  the  leases 
of  a  large  number  of  lots  have  expired,  or  are  about  expiring. 
I  would  ask  whether  it  is  your  opinion  the  vestry  should  sell 
those  lots,  and  pay  their  debts,  or  lease  them  ?  A.  It  is  my 
opinion  they  should  sell  the  lots  and  the  debt  of  the  corporation 
be  paid. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  majority  of  the  vestry  agree  with  you  in 
that  opinion  ?    A.  That  I  cannot  say. 


No.  95.] 


121 


Q.  Is  there  not,  in  certain  parts  of  the  city  of  New- York,  a 
great  scarcity  or  want  of  churches, — I  mean  in  the  eastern  part 
of  the  town,  and  in  the  4th,  6th,  13th  and  14th  wards  ?  A.  I 
am  not  acquainted  with  the  limits  of  the  wards;  though  I  have 
no  special  knowledge,  I  have  no  doubt  churches  might  be 
established,  with  advantage,  in  many  parts  of  the  city. 

Q.  After  selling  sufficient  property  to  pay  the  present  indebt- 
edness of  Trinity  Church,  in  your  opinion,  should  her  policy  be 
to  retain  the  balance  of  her  real  estate  and  appropriate  only  the 
income  of  it  1  A.  I  cannot  say  that  I  have  had  any  definite 
plan  with  regard  to  the  future.  My  idea  has  been  that  her  debt 
should  first  be  paid;  that  her  property  should,  as  far  as  practi- 
cable, be  preserved  until  it  could  be  sold  without  loss;  and  that 
when  she  has  set  apart  the  funds  necessary  to  take  care  of  the 
lower  part  of  the  city,  I  would  be  very  liberal  in  donations  to 
other  churches,  not  only  of  income,  but  of  principal,  where  it 
could  be  done  without  impairing  her  own  means  of  usefulness 
in  her  particular  sphere  of  duties. 

Q.  When  the  leases  expire,  could  not  the  property  of  Trinity 
Church  be  made  more  productive  by  a  sale  than  by  reletting; 
and  would  not  the  sale  be  more  beneficial  to  the  interests  of 
the  church  and  city?  A.  It  is  a  very  large  question,  and  one 
that  I  am  not  prepared  to  answer  at  this  time.  I  will  add,  that 
I  have  been  in  favor  of  selling  her  property  whenever  it  could 
be  done  advantageously. 

Q.  Cannot  the  property  be  now  sold  to  advantage,  subject  to 
the  leases  referred  to  ?  A.  As  a  general  rule  I  should  think- 
not;  though  I  have  no  doubt  that  some  particular  pieces  of  pro- 
perty or  lots  may  be. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  of  the  policy  of  making  some  of  the 
large  grants  to  the  up  town  churches,  the  Annunciation  and  St. 
Luke's  ?  A.  I  was  not  at  the  meetings  of  the  vestry,  I  think,  at 
which  those  two  grants  were  made;  and  I  cannot,  therefore, 
speak  of  the  special  inducements  for  making  them. 

Q.  When  acting  as  a  vestryman  of  Trinity,  do  you  consider 
yourself  acting  as  a  vestryman  of  Trinity  parish  only,  or  as  a 


122 


I  Senate 


trustee  for  Episcopalians  in  the  city  of  New- York  generally  ? 
A.  I  consider  myself  as  acting  as  a  trustee  for  Trinity  parish 
only. 

By  counsel  for  Trinity  Church  : 

Q.  What  can  you  state  with  regard  to  the  mortgage  held  by 
Trinity  Church  upon  Zion  church,  in  Mott-street  ?  A.  My  re- 
collection is  that  Trinity  Church  loaned  to  Zion  church,  in  Mott- 
street,  in  1830,  the  sum  of  $7,000.  In  1850,  on  the  removal  of 
the  church  to  Murray  Hill,  Trinity  Church  transferred  the  loan 
of  the  mortgage  to  the  new  church,  which  was  to  be  built,  and 
remitted  the  Interest  of  the  old  mortgage  for  the  twenty  years, 
which  amounted  to  $9,800. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  me  whether  this  (presenting  the  following 
paper)  is  a  copy  of  a  resolution  from  the  minutes  of  the  vestry 
of  Trinity  church  ?  A.  It  is.  I  compared  it  with  the  original 
minutes.    The  following  is  a  copy: 

Extract  from  the  Minutes  of  the  Corporation  of  Trinity  Churchy 
held  on  the  28th  day  of  March,  1812. 

RESOLUTION. 

Report  oj  committee  on  the  state  of  the  church: 

It  having  been  represented  to  this  board,  that  certain  persons 
belonging  to  Protestant  Episcopal  congregations  in  this  city, 
which  have  been  incorporated  as  separate  and  distinct  from  the 
corporation  of  Trinity  church,  and  who  are  not  pew  holders  in 
Trinity  church,  or  any  of  its  chapels,  claim  a  right  to  vote  at  the 
annual  elections  for  church  wardens  and  vestrymen  of  Trinity 
church,  Therelore — 

Resolved,  As  the  unanimous  sense  of  this  board,  that  no  other 
persons  except  inhabitants  of  the  city  of  New  York,  who  profess 
themselves  members  of  the  Protestant  Episcopal  church,  and 
hold,  occupy  or  enjoy  a  pew  or  seat  in  Trinity  church,  or  one 
of  its  chapels,  and  regularly  pay  to  the  support  of  the  said 
church,  or  regularly  worshipping  therein,  shall  partake  of  the 
holy  sacrament  of  the  Lord's  Supper,  in  the  said  church,  or  one 
of  its  chapels,  at  least  once  in  every  year,  are  entitled  to  vote  at 
the  said  elections. 


No.  95.  j 


123 


Examination  by  counsel  for  Trinity  church. — Jo/in  R.  Living- 
ston called  and  sworn  : 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  a  vestryman  of  Trinity  church  ? 
A.  I  was  elected,  I  think,  in  January,  1847,  and  have  continued 
to  this  time. 

Q.  What  Episcopal  churches  were  there  in  the  city  of  New- 
York,  independent  of  Trinity  church,  prior  to  1814,  and  which 
of  such  churches  were  built  by  Trinity  church  ?  A.  There  were 
nine  Episcopal  churches,  independent  of  T:  :nity  and  her  chap- 
els; three  of  which  were  built  by  Trinity  church.  They  were 
St.  George's  chapel,  Grace  church  and  St.  Mark's  church. 

Q.  How  has  the  increase  of  parishes  in  the  city  of  New-York, 
since  1813,  compared  with  the  increase  of  the  population  of  the 
city?  A.  In  1814,  there  were  twelve  congregations,  including 
those  of  Trinity  parish.  In  1847,  there  wTere  thirty-five  congre- 
gations. In  1857,  there  are,  as  appears  in  evidence,  fifty  con- 
gregations. The  increase  from  1814  to  1847,  a  term  of  thirty- 
three  years,  was  twenty-three  congregations.  The  increase  from 
1847  to  1857,  a  term  of  ten  years,  is  fifteen  congregations.  In 
1814,  the  population  was  105,000,  according  to  the  testimony  of 
Air.  Winston.  In  1857,  the  population  is  said  to  be  about  650,- 
000.  Some  of  the  recently  built  churches,  are  very  large.  I 
will  instance  St.  George's  church,  Calvary,  Trinity  chapel  and 
the  church  of  the  Transfiguration. 

Q.  Has  Trinity  Church  ever  foreclosed  any  ©f  the  mortgages 
received  for  loans  to  churches  ?  A.  I  am  quite  sure  she  never 
has. 

Q.  Will  you  explain  the  transactions  with  regard  to  the 
premises  of  the  Protestant  Episcopal  City  Mission  Society  ?  A. 
In  the  early  days  of  the  City  Mission  Society,  the  corporation 
of  Trinity  Church  determined  to  make  annual  appropriations 
towards  the  support  of  the  missionaries,  in  preference  to  giving 
land  or  building  churches.  They  accordingly,  in  1832,  appro- 
priated $1,200,  and  afterwards  1,800  per  annum.  In  the  year 
1837,  the  society  was  embarrassed,  and  obtained  from  Trinity 


124 


|  Sen ATi< 


Church  a  loan  of  $10,000,  secured  by  9  mortgage  on  the  two 
mission  churches  of  the  Holy  Evangelists  in  Vandewater-street, 
and  the  church  of  Epiphany  in  Stanton-street.  This  was  a 
business  transaction  and  in  no  sense  a  gift  to  the  society.  In  1844, 
the  Howard  Insurance  Company  foreclosed  prior  mortgages  held 
by  them  on  the  two  City  Mission  churches,  and  the  premises,  by 
an  arrangement  made  by  the  vestry  of  Trinity  Church,  were 
transferred  to  the  two  congregations  that  had  become  indepen- 
dent corporations.  The  corporation  of  Trinity  Church  assumed 
the  payment  of  £13,000  of  the  consideration  money,  the  balance 
I  believe  was  raised  by  the  respective  church  corporations.  In 
this  arrangement,  it  was  necessary  to  credit  the  City  Mission 
Society  with  the  residue  of  the  consideration  or  purchase  money, 
after  satisfying  prior  existing  incumbrances  on  the  premises. 
The  amount  thus  audited  is  $10,140.51,  which  amount  increased 
to  $13,000,  was  advanced,  by  the  corporation  of  Trinity  Church, 
to  the  two  churches  in  equal  amounts,  and  mortgages  given  by 
each  of  them  to  the  corporation  of  Trinity  Church  for  the  sum 
of  $6,500.  It  will  thus  be  seen  that  in  this  instance  the  mort- 
gage to  Trinity  Church  "  did  tend  to  secure  the  permanent  use 
of  the  Protestant  Episcopal  church,  the  buildings  and  property 
thus  mortgaged. " 

Q.  What  have  you  to  say  with  regard  to  the  mortgage  on  the 
Yande water-street  church  I  A.  When  the  corporation  of  Trinity 
Church  had  made  arrangements  for  the  purchase  of  St.  George's 
church  in  Beekman-strest,  they  received  a  communication  from 
the  vestry  ot  the  church  of  the  Holy  Evangelists  in  Vande water- 
street,  in  the  4th  ward  of  the  city,  stating  that  two  churches  so 
closely  together  as  the  Holy  Evangelists  and  St.  George's  in 
Beekman-street,  having  special  reference  to  the  benefit  of  the 
same  class  of  persons — the  poor  who  attended — would  injudi- 
ciously affect  each  other,  and  so  weaken  both  as  to  be  a  cause  of 
lasting  sorrow.  They  also  stated  that  their  church  was  in  a 
dilapidated  condition,  and  would  require  a  large  expenditure  to 
repair  it  5  and  besides  this,  that  the  location  for  a  church  had 
become  the  worst  in  the  city.  This  communication  was  referred 
to  a  special  committee  on  St.  George's  church,  and  on  their  te- 
oomm end ation,  the  vestry  removed  the  congregation  of  the  church 


No.  95.  | 


125 


of  the^Holy  Evangelists  to  St.  George's  church  in  Beekman-st., 
and  had  the  property  transferred  to  that  corporation.  The  church 
in  Vandewater-street  was  then  sold  by  its  own  vestry,  and  after 
paying  off  all  prior  incumbrances,  the  balance  of  $1,200  was 
paid  over  to  Trinity  corporation,  who  expended  this  amount, 
together  with  a  much  larger  sum,  in  preparing  St.  George's 
church  for  their  accommodation. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  money  the  church  of  St.  John  the 
Baptist  has  received  from  Trinity  Church  since  its  report  was 
made?  A.  The  corporation  of  St.  John  the  Baptist  have 
recently  erected  a  fine  church  building  in  the  upper  part  of  the 
city.  Before  the  church  was  completed,  they  became  very  much 
embarrassed  and  applied  to  Trinity  to  assume  the  interest  on 
the  sum  of  $15,000.  This  matter  was  referred  to  the  standing 
committee,  who  reported  adversely  to  the  application.  It  was 
considered  in  the  vestry,  their  report  was  overruled  and  the 
application  granted.  I  will  here  add  that  on  the  same  evening? 
a  similar  report  was  made  on  the  application  uf  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Howland  ;  it  having  become  absolutely  necessary  to  protect  the 
church  building  of  St.  John  the  Baptist,  the  vestry  could  not 
respond  at  that  time  to  Mr.  Howland's  application,  and  referred 
it  back  to  the  same  committee  for  further  action. 

Q.  What  explanation  can  you  give  in  regard  to  the  grant  to 
St.  Jude's  Church.  A.  In  1843,  the  standing  committee  made  a 
report  on  an  application  of  St.  Jude's  Church  for  aid,  setting 
forth  that  the  church  had  no  permanent  edifice  or  fixed  location, 
that  its  present  place  of  worship  was  in  a  part  of  the  city  sur- 
rounded by  other  churches  affording  ample  accommodations  for 
all  persons  in  that  vicinity,  and  recommending  on  these  grounds, 
and  also  on  the  ground  of  the  condition  of  the  finances  of  the 
corporation,  that  the  application  be  not  complied  with,  which 
was  adopted  by  the  vestry. 

Q.  Has  the  amount  of  annual  stipends  been  reduced  ?  A.  I 
think  not,  My  impression  is  that  the  aggregate  amount  has 
been  gradually  increased  each  year  during  the  last  ten  years. 
There  are  three  instances  to  my  knowledge,  where  they  have 


12G 


[Senace 


been  entirely  dispensed  with.  St.  Thomas'  Church,  the  salary 
of  whose  rector  is  said  to  be  $5000  per  annum,  St.  Bartholo- 
mew's, and  the  Church  of  the  Ascension,  whose  congregations 
have  been  equally  liberal  towards  their  pastor.  These  amounts 
have  been  transferred  to  other  congregations  who  were  iu  need 
of  them. 

Q.  What  effect  has  the  disposing  of  large  masses  of  property 
by  lease,  had  upon  the  value  of  real  estate  contiguous?  A. 
Some  of  the  finest  and  most  costly  private  dwellings  in  the  city 
of  New-York  are  built  on  the  property  of  the  Trustees  of  the 
Sailors  Snug  Harbor,  a  charitable  institution.  It  is  situated  in 
the  finest  and  most  fashionable  part  of  the  city,  and  the  real 
estate  in  the  vicinity  is  materially  enhanced  in  value  by  the 
condition  of  this  leasehold  property.  In  another  portion  of  the 
city,  a  large  leasehold  estate  on  Fourteenth  street,  extending 
from  University  Place  to  the  Sixth  Avenue,  known  as  the 
Shiugler  lease,  is  covered  with  similar  fine  dwellings,  and  the 
property  in  the  neighborhood  is  of  the  most  valuable  in  the  city. 
The  same  is  also  true  of  the  leased  property  of  Columbia  Col- 
lege, which  was  derived  from  Trinity  Church  ;  and  the  church's 
leased  property  in  the  lower  part  of  the  city  has  always  been 
well  improved  and  fine  buildings  erected  upon  it. 

Q.  Is  it  true,  as  stated  in  the  report  of  the  committee,  foot  of 
page  16,  that  Col.  Troop's  pamphlet  was  an  inducement  to  the 
Legislature  to  pass  the  act  of  1814  ?  A.  It  cannot  be  true,  from 
the  fact  that  the  act  was  passed  on  the  2d  of  April,  1813,  and 
the  pamphlet  bears  date  the  6th  of  September  following. 

Q.  What  have  you  to  say  as  to  the  result  of  the  policy  of  the 
vestry,  in  granting  money  instead  of  lots  1  A.  I  desire  to  con- 
trast the  result  of  the  policy  adopted  prior  and  since  the  year 
1814.  Since  the  year  1814,  the  policy  of  Trinity  Church  has 
been  to  grant  to  churches,  institutions  of  charity,  and  learning, 
money  instead  of  lots.  Besides  having  built  St.  George's,  Grace 
and  St.  Mary's  churches,  and  St.  John's  and  St.  Paul's  chapels? 
this  corporation  have  aided  in  this  State  about  201  churches — 71 
in  western  New-York,  41  in  the  city  of  New-York  and  89  in  other 
parts  of  this  diocese.    Hobart  College,  at  Geneva,  has  been  made 


No.  95.  J 


127 


free  by  her  means  ;  the  General  Theological  Seminary  and  the 
Education  and  Missionary  Fund  aided  ;  appropriations  have  been 
made  to  foreign,  home  and  city  missions  of  our  church  ;  an  Epis- 
copal residence  has  been  purchased,  and  the  Episcopal  fund 
largely  increased ;  annuities  have  been  made  to  the  lamilies  of 
deceased  clergymen ;  the  aged  and  infirm  of  the  clergy  have  been 
assisted,  and  monuments  have  been  erected  to  worth,  valor  and 
patriotism.  These  are  some  of  the  advantages  obtained,  and 
benefits  derived  from  the  proceeds  of  the  sale  of  1059  lots.  It 
is  respectfully  submitted  that  they  will  compare  favorably,  in 
value  and  usefulness,  with  the  former  policy  of  the  vestry,  of 
granting  a  large  number  of  lots  to  a  few  favored  churches  and 
institutions. 

Q.  Has  Trinity  Church,  in  your  opinion,  done  her  utmost  to 
make  the  capital  of  her  property  available  for  religious  purposes^ 
&c.  ?  A.  My  answer  is,  that  she  has  endeavored  to  do  her  best 
in  the  exercise  of  an  honest  judgment 

Q.  Is  there  any  obstacle  to  the  collection  of  church  mortgages 
if  the  vestry  are  so  disposed  1  A.  I  think  there  is,  the  great 
obstacle  of  good,  faith. 

Q.  Are  there  other  standing  business  committees  in  the  vestry 
besides  the  standing  committee  ?  A.  There  are  three  standing 
committees  in  all  •  the  standing  committee  proper,  which  is  the 
finance  committee,  the  committee  on  supplies  and  repairs,  and 
the  committee  on  the  cemetery  ;  special  committees  are  fre- 
quently appointed  as  occasion  may  require. 

By  the  Senate  committee 

Q.  Will  you  look  at  the  poll  list  of  1854,  and  see  how  many 
of  them  are  not  connected  with  Trinity  Church  as  vestrymen? 
clergymen  or  officers  1  A.  All  are  corporators  of  Trinity  Church., 
twelve  of  the  twenty-six  are  in  no  manner  connected  with  Trinity 
Church  as  vestrymen,  clergymen  or  officers. 

Q.  Does  not  Col.  Troop's  pamphlet  bear  date  before  the  law 
of  1814  was  passed?  A.  Col.  Troop's  pamphlet  bears  date  the 
6th  of  September,  1813.    The  bill  had  passed  both  houses  on  the 


128 


[Senate 


2d  of  April,  1813,  and  became  a  law  on  the  25th  of  January, 
1814.  I  beg  leave  to  add,  Col.  Troop  states  in  his  pamphlet  that 
two  members  of  the  council  of  revision,  were  pleased  to  express 
a  desire  that  he  would  furnish  them  his  reasons  in  support  of 
the  bill,  and  in  compliance  with  this  desire,  his  argument  was 
made. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  the  churchmen  in  New- York  have  ap- 
plied to  have  the  law  of  1814  repealed,  in  1846, or  at  other  times'? 
A.  I  have  reason  to  believe  that  from  1814  to  1846,  no  such 
application  was  made,  a  period  of  thirty-two  years.  In  1846 
and  1847,  the  Rev.  Thomas  H.  Taylor,  Rev.  Dr.  Anthon,  Rev. 
Jesse  Pound,  the  Hon.  Luther  Bradish,  Robert  B.  Minturn,  Esq., 
Frederick  S.  Winston,  Esq.,  Stewart  Brown,  Esq.,  John  De  Wolf, 
Esq.,  Stephen  Cambreling,  Esq.,  did  unite  with  others,  in  an  ap- 
plication to  the  Legislature  to  repeal  the  act  of  1814. 

Q.  Were  the  church  mortgages,  as  they  are  called,  reported 
as  capital  in  your  report  of  1854  ?  A.  They  were  reported  as 
church  mortgages  on  which  no  interest  was  collected.  If  they 
had  not  been  reported  as  property,  it  might  have  been  difficult 
to  protect  the  churches  for  whose  benefit  they  were  taken. 

Q  Why  then  should  they  not  have  been  reported  in  1856  ? 
A.  They  having  been  reported  once,  it  would  answer  that  pur- 
pose, and  they  were  not  asked  for. 

Q.  You  say  in  your  report,  on  page  8,  that  you  have  endea- 
vored to  show  the  condition  of  the  capital  of  Trinity  church, 
and  have  omitted  to  mention  these  mortgages.  What  is  your 
explanation  of  this  ?  A.I  do  not  consider  these  mortgages  any 
portion  of  the  available  capital  of  Trinity  church. 

Q.  I  ask  you,  if  they  are  not  capital  ?  A.  I  answer  that  that 
is  a  matter  of  opinion;  I  think  not. 

Q.  Was  not  one  of  the  reasons  for  refusing  aid  to  St.  Matthew's 
church  alleged  to  be,  that  her  language  was  not  respectful  1  A. 
No  sir,  not  that  I  have  heard  of, 


No.  95.] 


129 


Q.  Was  not  the  language  of  the  application,  considered  by 
the  vestry,  imperative,  and  spoken  of  as  being  so  ?  I  think  it 
was. 

Q.  Is  not  the  real  estate  of  Trinity  church  worth  more  now 
than  at  any  former  period  ?    A.  I  think  it  is. 

Q.  What  is  the  character  of  the  improvements  on  most  of  the 
leased  property  of  Trinity  church?  A.  The  property  in  the 
lower  part  of  the  city  is  very  well  improved;  some  of  the  local- 
ities in  the  upper  part  are  well  improved,  and  others  indiffer- 
ently so.    This  depends  very  much  upon  the  situation. 

Q.  Are  not  most  of  the  buildings  in  the  upper  part  of  the 
city  very  poor  and  inferior?  A.  Many  of  the  buildings  were 
erected  a  long  time  ago,  and  do  not  compare  favorably  with  such 
as  are  now  built. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  three  churches  from  which  stipends  were  taken 
away  altogether;  are  not  all  three  such  as  are  called  "  low" 
churches?  A.  Stipends  were  given  by  the  corporation  of  Tri- 
nity church,  with  the  intention  of  providing  for,  or  contributing 
towards  the  salary  of  the  minister;  and  in  all  cases  where  the 
congregations  are  sufficiently  wealthy  to  provide  liberally  for 
their  rectors,  the  vestry  of  Trinity  church  has  considered  it  a 
duty  to  withdraw  the  stipends,  without  reference  to  the  party 
character  of  the  congregations,  or  rector.  The  three  churches 
named  in  the  question,  are  supposed  to  belong  to  what  is  called 
the  "  low"  church  party. 

Adjourned  to  10  A.  M.,  to-morrow. 


Tuesday,  Feb.  24,  1857. 
Present — The  Senate  committee,  Messrs.  Spencer  Noxon,  and 
Ramsey.    Counsel  as  before. 

This  meeting  of  the  committee  was  mainly  devoted  to  making 
such  verbal  alterations  in  the  testimony  as  had  been  deemed 
necessary  by  the  counsel  for  Trinity  Church  to  fully  present  the 


[Senate,  No.  95. j 


9 


130 


[Senate 


meaning  of  the  several  witnesses  testifying.  The  several  altera- 
tions were  assented  to  by  the  committee. 


Wednesday,  February  25. 
Richard  H.  Ogden  called  and  sworn : 

Q.  Are  you  the  clerk  of  the  vestry  of  Trinity  Church  ?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Have  you  made  search  for  the  poll  list  of  voters  at  the 
vestry  elections  held  prior  to  1814  ?  A.  I  have  made  search  and 
cannot  find  any.  I  have  no  means  of  ascertaining  whether  they 
were  preserved  at  as  early  a  date  as  that. 

By  the  committee : 

Q.  Have  you  made  search  since  1814  ?    A.  I  have. 

Q.  Do  you  find  any  lists  on  file?    A.  None  prior  to  1846. 

William  S.  Be  Zeng,  called  and  sworn : 

Q.  As  agent  of  Trinity  Church,  did  you  apply  to  the  commit- 
tee, in  the  city  of  New- York,  for  a  copy  of  the  testimony  taken 
by  them,  after  the  testimony  was  closed?  A.  I  was  requested 
by  Mr.  Dunscomb,  the  Comptroller,  to  apply  for  a  copy 
about  the  time  the  committee  were  done  taking  testimo- 
ny. After  the  request  was  made,  I  saw  both  Mr.  Noxon  and 
Mr.  Ramsey,  and  asked  them  for  a  copy  of  the  testimony.  They 
said  there  was  no  objection  to  our  having  a  copy.  I  then  went 
to  the  clerk  of  the  committee  and  asked  him  if  he  would  furnish 
a  copy,  we  paying  for  it.  He  declined;  said  he  could  not  do  it 
without  the  authority  of  Mr.  Spencer.  I  then  saw  Mr.  Spencer, 
and  Mr.  Spencer  said  he  could  not  authorise  it,  and  thought  it 
would  be  improper'until  the  committee  should  make  a  report.  I 

told  Mr.  Spencer  if  a  copy  could  be  made  we  would  pay  for  it. 

\ 

The  counsel  for  Trinity  Church  here  produced  an  affidavit  of 
service  of  a  subpcena  to  appear  and  testify,  upon  the  Rev.  Thos. 
H.  Taylor,  D.  D.,  Rev.  Henry  Anthon,  D.  D.,  Luther  Bradish, 
and  Stewart  Brown,  on  the  9th  day  of  February,  instant,  and  that 
they  failed  to  appear. 


No.  95.J 


131 


Counsel  for  church  here  closed. 

The  chairman  of  the  committee  presented  the  following  let- 
ters from  persons  who  had  been  subpoenaed,  but  had  failed  to 
attend  : 

New-York,  Feb.  10,  1857. 

To  the  Hon.  Mark  Spencer,  James  Noxon  and  J.  H.  Ramsey, 

Committee,  #c,  Albany. 
Sirs, — At  5  o'clock  this  evening,  I  received  your  summons  in 
the  matter  of  Trinity  Church,  requiring  me  to  attend  before  you 
on  the  12th  day  of  Feb.  inst.,  at  9  o'clock  a.m.,  at  the  rooms  of 
the  committee  in  the  Capitol  in  the  city  of  Albany,  to  testify 
and  give  evidence  before  you  in  relation  to  the  matters  referred 
to  you. 

While  I  entertain  the  highest  respect  for  your  committee,  and 
for  the  authority  by  which  you  act,  yet  in  the^present  condition 
of  the  communications  between  this  city  and  Albany,  the 
inclemency  of  the  season,  my  advanced  age,  and  the  state  of  my 
health,  which  is  not  good,  a  compliance  with  the  requirements  of 
your  summons  would  be  extremely  difficult,  if  not  quite  imprac- 
ticable. I  trust,  therefore,  that  it  may  not  be  deemed,  under 
the  circumstances,  an  unreasonable  indulgence,  wrhen  I  respect- 
fully ask  to  be  excused  from  a  personal  attendance  before  your 
committee ;  and  in  lieu  thereof  to  be  permitted  to  answer  on 
paper  any  cross  or  explanatory  interrogatories  which  any  party 
interested  may  desire  to  put  to  me.  This  I  shall  cheerfully  do, 
even  although  it  may  involve  a  greater  labor  than  a  personal 
examination  under  the  circumstances  would  do. 

Under  present  circumstances  were  I,  at  every  inconvenience 
and  risk,  to  attempt  a  compliance  with  the  requirement  of  your 
summons,  it  would  be  impossible  for  me  to  attend  before  you  in 
person  at  the  time  indicated  by  you.  1  venture,  therefore, 
respectfully  but  confidently  to  hope  that  the  indulgence  I  ask  in 
this  case  maybe  accorded  by  the  committee,  In  which  hope  I 
remain,  sirs,  with  the  highest  respect, 

Your  obedient  servant, 

L.  BRADISH, 


132 


[Senate 


New- York,  Feb.  llfA,  1857. 

Hon.  Mark  Spencer: 

Dear  Sir — I  received  yesterday  afternoon  a  summons  to  attend 
before  the  committee,  of  which  you  are  the  chairman,  on  the 
12th  inst.,  to  give  evidence  in  relation  to  the  matter  of  Trinity 
Church.  Having  but  just  been  relieved  from  a  severe  cold,  I 
feel  a  great  reluctance,  especially  at  this  season,  and  in  the 
present  state  of  the  roads,  to  encounter  the  fatigue  and  exposure 
of  a  journey  to  Albany.  I  beg  leave,  therefore,  respectfully  to 
place  my  case  before  your  committee,  in  the  hope  that  they  will 
excuse  me  from  attending;  and  I  do  so  with  the  less  hestitation, 
as  my  evidence  was  given  in  full  when  the  committee  were  in 
session  in  this  city.  Most  respectfully  yours, 

H.  ANTHON. 

804  Broadway,  New- York,  ) 
February  16,  1857.  \ 

Hon.  Mark  Spencer,  Chairman,  ftc%: 

My  Dear  Sir — Absence  from  home,  and  a  pressure  of  unavoid- 
able engagements,  have  prevented  me  from  making  an  earlier 
acknowledgment  of  the  receipt  of  a  summons  from  the  special 
committee  of  the  Senate,  in  the  matter  of  Trinity  Church,  requir- 
ing me  to  attend  and  give  evidence  before  the  committee  on  the 
12th  inst.  With  the  most  perfect  respect  for  the  committee, 
and  with  an  earnest  desire  to  meet  all  their  requirements,  it  was 
yet  entirely  out  of  my  power  to  attend  at  Albany  as  a  witness  at 
the  time  specified. 

While  I  thus  freely  and  sincerely  express  my  respect  for  your 
committee,  and  my  regret  at  not  being  permitted  to  aid  them  as 
I  best  could  in  their  important  labors,  yet  you  must  permit  me 
to  say,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  none  of  this  respect,  and  nothing  of 
this  regret  is  intended  by  me,  to  extend  to  any  hired  agents  of 
Trinity,  at  whose  instance,  as  I  take  it,  the  summons  now  be- 
fore me  was  issued. 

During  the  meetings  of  your  committee  in  this  city  every 
opportunity  was  afforded  to  the  corporation  of  Trinity  Church, 
either  to  summon  witnesses  or  to  propose  cross-interrogatories  to 


No.  95.] 


133 


every  witness  before  your  committee ;  and  if  in  their  supercili- 
ousness or  reckless  negligence  they  did  not  avail  themselves  of 
their  privilege,  the  consequences  must  rest  upon  themselves. 
The  vexatious  course  they  are  now  pursuing,  of  attempting  to 
drag  gentlemen  from  their  business  and  their  homes  at  this  in- 
clement season  of  the  year,  from  whom  they  well  know  that 
they  cannot  obtain  one  word  of  evidence  in  any  way  useful  to 
Trinity  Church,  has  no  other  earthly  object  than  to  gain  time, 
and  thus  to  defeat  by  postponing  one  of  the  most  salutary  mea- 
sures of  reform  that  has  ever  claimed  the  attention  of  the  Legis- 
lature of  the  State. 

With  my  renewed  assurance  of  the  most  perfect  respect  for 
your  committee,  permit  me  to  subscribe  myself,  Mr.  Chairman, 
Your  friend  and  obedient  servant, 
Very  truly, 

THOMAS  HOUSE  TAYLOR, 
Rector  of  Grace  Church  in  the  city  of  New-  York. 

The  following  letter  was  presented  by  the  counsel  for  Trinity 
corporation,  and  ordered  filed  with  those  previously  received. 

u  New- York,  February  24,  1857. 

Wm.  E.  Dunscomb,  Esq. 

Dear  Sir. — I  have  received  your  note  of  yesterday,  asking  me 
again  to  go  up  to  Albany.  For  myself  I  cannot  see  its  impor- 
tance ;  and  with  reference  to  my  answer  that  I  '  have  been  on 
a  committee  to  examine  the  annual  report,  and  examination  of 
the  accounts  of  the  comptroller  ;  they  have  access  to  all  the 
books  referred  to  in  the  annual  report,  and  such  only.5  Our 
committee  at  this  examination  called  on  Mr.  Rogers,  the  clerk, 
for  the  books  and  vouchers,  who  furnished  the  same  and  no 
others,  because  no  others  were  called  for  by  the  committee  ;  and 
that  is  what  I  mean  by  '  and  such  only.'  And  by  going  to 
Albany  I  could  give  no  other  explanation,  and  to  my  mind  no 
other  one  is  required.  Did  I  suppose  that  I  could  be  of  any  use  to 
the  committee  by  going  up  to  Albany,  I  would  try  to  go  up,  yet, 
as  I  wrote  Mr.  Ogden,  it  would  be  at  not  a  little  personal  incon- 
venience ;  and,  therefore,  hope  that  you  will  excuse  me,  and 
oblige 

Very  truly  yours, 

CYRUS  CURTISS .» 
Adjourned  to  10  A.  M.,  Saturday  morning. 


ERRATA. 


Tt  should  have  been  stated  in  the  minutes,  page  1.  and  in  subsequent  places,  that  'Jou- 
verneur  M.  Ogden,  Esq.,  attended  as  one  of  the  counsel  for  Trinity  Church. 

In  testimony  of  Dr.  Haight : 
Page  14,  line  2,  instead  of  "4,000  to  4,500,"  read  "40,000  to  50,000." 

In  Bishop  Potter's  testimony : 

Page  24,  line  12,  instead  of  "when"  read  "where." 

"   25,  "     3,  for  "managed"  read  "management  of  the;"  and  on 

"   "     5,  for  "my  parish"  read  "any  parish." 
"   27,  "   21,  for  "intend"  read  "intended." 
"   48,  "   27,  for  "sustain"  read  "establish." 
"   50,"     3,  for  "practicable"  read  "practical." 

In  Rev.  Jesse  Pound's  testimony : 

Page  30,  line  22,  and  24,  and  on  page  32,  line  21,  for  "Eastman"  read  "Eastburn"  and 
on  "   31,    "     2,  read  "Shimeal." 

In  Dr.  Berrian's  testimony : 
Page  39,  line  9,  for  "grants"  tead  "grant." 

In  Bishop  De  Lancey's  testimony : 
Page  82,  line  22,  for  "expectant"  read  "expectants."  and  in 

"  24  and  25,  for  "practically  unacquainted"  read  "partially  acquainted." 
"  83,  "  25,  for  "dispersing"  read  "dispensing." 

In  Mr.  Wm.  Moore's  testimony : 
Page  84,  line  21,  for  "De  Rhau"  read  "De  Rham." 

In  Mr.  Verplanck's  testimony: 

Page  91,  5th  line  from  bottom,  instead  of  "attempted",  &c.f  read  "have  been  tempted 
to  enlarge  or  vary  their  plans." 

Page  92, 12th  line,  for  "Linsley"  read  "himself." 
"  95,    7th   "   from  bottom,  for  "receives"  read  "received." 
"95,    4th    te     "       "      for  "granted"  read  "leased." 
"98,   2d    "   from  top,  for  "regarded"  read  "requested." 

In  Gen.  Dix's  testimony : 
Page  101,  line  13,  after  the  word  "times"  insert  a  comma  instead  of  a  period. 
"  108,    "   14,  instead  of  "receipts  and  expenditures"  read  "deficiency." 

"   15,  instead  of  "were"  substitute  "was." 
"  120,    "     6,  instead  of  "increase"  read  "measure." 


In  Mr.  John  R.  Livingston's  testimony: 
Pag«  126,  line  17,  for  "Shingler"  read  "Spingler." 


ADDITIONAL  ERRATA. 


In  the  testimony  of  John  R.  Livingston,  page  127,  after  line 
14,  insert  the  following  question  and  answer,  which  have  been 
omitted  : 

Q  State  whether  grants  have  been  made  in  a  spirit  of  partia- 
lity or  partizanship  1 

A.  I  answer  unqualifiedly  no,  on  behalf  of  myself  and  asso 
ciates. 


